Author Topic: Upkeep system flawed  (Read 5069 times)

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Offline B3RS3RK

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2011, 04:45:22 pm »
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Solution: Increase the weight penalty further, but make Plates easier to sustain.

This Way only the real Plate lovers who wear them for Style will wear them.
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Offline Gumdrawp

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2011, 04:47:38 pm »
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Not everyone has a damn MW weapon you know.  Fighting you, tydeus and goretooth last night you each took around 5-7 thrusts from full hp for me to kill with my lawlpike (32p) on Braxxus.

Balancing around MW's is silly imo since we're not going to be using them in strat.

I was under the impression in the new strat well be able to forge them in towns because of the chadztext. Also its going to be the same situation whether or not you balance around masterworks, I assume that if you balance around MW weapons you would be assuming the enemy would be wearing lordly armor as well.

Solution: Increase the weight penalty further, but make Plates easier to sustain.

This Way only the real Plate lovers who wear them for Style will wear them.

Yeah, because moving like i have -2 athletics and swinging like ive got 50 less wpf than I actually have isn't enough of a drawback on top of the fact that my set already costs more than most cav setups(assuming you dont use a armored horse.)

The actual risk/reward of wearing plate is fairly even right now in my opinion. The bigger issue is people aren't making money with light armor sets, maybe something like Tydeus equipment insurance suggestion should be considered. I think having a line drawn somewhere in the medium armor range with a low-mid tier weapon (20k-25k or so loadout) should be free to upkeep basically; BUT you recieve less actual gold per tick.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 04:53:19 pm by Gumdrawp »

Offline Gorath

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2011, 04:52:32 pm »
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I assume that if you balance around MW weapons you would be assuming the enemy would be wearing lordly armor as well.

I still say this is silly because why are we balancing around the idea that you have to spend 1000's of hours before you're on-par with where the game is balanced anymore?

Not everyone took advantage of the broken retirement system pre-fix in order to get 30 heirloom points or more.  Then there's the flat out new players.  None of us have lordly plate/black armor and MW bec's.   :?
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline Gumdrawp

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2011, 04:58:53 pm »
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I still say this is silly because why are we balancing around the idea that you have to spend 1000's of hours before you're on-par with where the game is balanced anymore?

Not everyone took advantage of the broken retirement system pre-fix in order to get 30 heirloom points or more.  Then there's the flat out new players.  None of us have lordly plate/black armor and MW bec's.   :?

I started playing like 2 weeks ago and I currently have lordly plate mittens, lordly black armor and a MW poleaxe. Granted Tydeus helped me out by lending me a few hundred thousand when I started you can make a decent amount of money if you're good at playing the market and sell your loom points then buy what you want.

Regardless of how hard it is to obtain heirlooms I still dont see how balancing around normal armor and weapons is different from balancing around +3 weapons and +3 armors.

Also whens the last time you've heard of a game balancing around "noobs" and not the "competitive scene".
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 05:00:00 pm by Gumdrawp »

Offline Gorath

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2011, 05:10:44 pm »
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Meh, the problem would be solved if chadz would just let us buy heirloom points from the dev team for RL cash.  That way the no-life grinders get their gear for free, and we with jobs can just buy the shit.
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Offline Lamix

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2011, 05:26:42 pm »
-2
problem would be solved by removing upkeep, and removing the top tier stuff, problem sorted.

Offline Ming

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2011, 05:29:23 pm »
+1
problem would be solved by removing upkeep, and removing the top tier stuff, problem sorted.

Nothing personal, but...it is the worse solution ive seen on the forum so far.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 05:30:24 pm by Ming »

Offline Lamix

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2011, 05:34:22 pm »
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Ok maybe that was a slight over exaggeration but thats the way that its heading for anyone that likes to play just casual, the upkeep system as it stands is too random, some people think its great cos they get lucky other think it terrible because they can't play with anything without losing money, both are right and wrong its too random.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 05:37:46 pm by Lamix »

Offline Armpit_Sweat

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2011, 05:59:49 pm »
+1
I was, and am against upkeep since the patch came out for half a year ago...

I am sure though, that other ways of regulating armor/weapon speed have been tested, and the current upkeep system is the only working solution so far.

In theory, i would rather see some sort of stamina, or an extreme speed penalty for plate users.

Or may be, Strength is supposed to be "divided" between gear, so if you have 21 Strength, and use a Poleaxe with 17 difficulty, you would only have 4 Strength left for armor.

What about a higher chance for being knocked down on the ground by a blunt weapon, depending on the total gear weight?.. So it would be more of a rock/paper/scissors thing, instead of "if it is expensive - its the best".

Actually, anything but upkeep :) Even removing the top tier armors would work better for me, i have only used plate armor for a single week since august 2010 anyways...

All-in-all, I don't really care anymore, i can always sell an item on the market, and fuel my gear for at least a week :)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 06:01:21 pm by Armpit_Sweat »
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Offline _JoG_

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2011, 06:38:36 pm »
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Introducing upkeep system was the reason why lots of skilled veterans who stopped playing crpg due to everyone being a tincan have started playing it again. However, at this time the upkeep was way too low, I was able to hang out in the stuff worth ~52k (transitional armor, hounskull bascinet, wisby ganutlets, longsword, ...) while maintaining zero balance (well, I could lose 5k in a week... I could easily grind that amount of money on a siege server in half an hour). I believe the upkeep was slightly increased in one of the patches (well, at least I switched to using less expensive gear), yet it remained pretty low. I was able to grind about 200k gold while using 35k "battle equip" (brigandine, open sallet, longsword, etc.) Do you think it's normal? Personally, I don't think so, especially considering that the number of plate/heavy horse users increased every week.
That's why I liked another increase in upkeep. Frankly speaking, I don't understand people whining about they have to use crappy gear, since after the last upkeep patch I managed to grind ~100k gold using my pre-patch "siege/grind set" worth ~23k (haubergeon, kettle helmet, mail mittens, leather boots, MS longsword, plain board shield). So, probably the whiners are either not quite fair or doing something wrong :).

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2011, 08:19:06 pm »
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I wouldn't actually mind you using plate if it was purely aesthetic, turns out it's not and plate gives you a clear advantage over anyone else.

"Ohh, I'm not crutching on plate armor, OH FUCK I CAN'T USE MY PLATE ARMOR? GOOD GOD UPKEEP IS SHIT AND IS PREVENTING ME FROM CRUTCHING BECAUSE I'M  A NOBODY NOT WORTH SHIT THAT CAN'T DO JACK OUTSIDE HIS ARMOR"

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Offline Demeter

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2011, 04:13:21 am »
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Considering I am only level 20 and this is my first week playing I cant seem to make anything.  I am an archer in given to me beginer clothes and I have the Tartar Bow with Bodkin arrows @15 and after I kid you not.. 30 battles my money hasnt went up or down.   I did siege for 3 hours last night and battle for 3 hours today and I am still at 7k.   Now I did make money to get what I have now but, it seems I have either hit the cap or just very unlucky.  I checked the last 10 maps.  And I paid every upkeep on the arrows in 4 out of the 5 rotation and some I did the bow as well.

Now I know people that have been playing for a while have 200k and all there the gear they want and so on and its not a problem for them for to run around but, to bring in new people with this is rough.  Now I dont expect to be in full plate by now but, I do expect to be able to buy something better then the starter clothes after 30. And I know I put out for the bow and arrows... but, like I said I cant win or lose anything at this point.  If I put out 4k on stuff I could very well go broke.

Its harsh to begin with.   Not so harsh after you have been around for a while I figure.

But, just my thoughts on it.

Offline Bothersome_Aldryk

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2011, 06:00:15 pm »
+1
I don't believe that plate is an overwhelming advantage that cannot be overcome but there's a reason why before the big january patch, most experienced players rolled plate. Considering the fact that average damage has if anything gone down, due to the lack of many players higher than level 31, and the fact that armor heirlooms have been buffed, I fail to see how the situation has changed other than upkeep. Certainly, one can make an argument that upkeep balances it, but I find it hard to believe any argument that heavy and particularly heirloomed armor is balanced compared to light armor without upkeep. The advantages in mobility are useful and more importantly to me, fun, but they are mostly negated by certain factors. Water. The difference in speed traveling through water is so miniscule that there's no logical reason to have ath if every fight took place in water. Hills. Unless you're traveling at certain angles, slopes can once again reduce the difference in speed between high ath players and low ath players. Rain. It does the same, albeit to a much lesser extent.

So, we have situations where having movement speed as your advantage can be partially negated. Where is the advantage of heavy armor negated? I cannot think of a situation where taking less hits to be killed is a disadvantage. The disadvantages of armor, having less speed, certainly makes a rather significant difference. However, my personal opinion is that it makes less of a difference than taking more hits to kill provides. No matter the skill, it is relatively easy to take the occasional hit. Teamhits can be awkward to block, if there are enough ranged it can be awkward to dodge, and if you don't notice a ranged character well, you won't be dodging. The difference between plate and agi is that those occasional hits are much more threatening to the agi build. When I wear light armor, teamhits make me rage a lot more than when I wear heavy armor, due to the fact that they take off a very significant amount of health.

Oh, one thing to mention. Can people stop bringing up the fact that they topped the scoreboards as a certain build or using certain equipment? If you play enough and switch gears enough, you're bound to top the scoreboards with just about every build. Hell, topping the scoreboards isn't even hard. Score means NOTHING because it doesn't take into account who you fought and beat, and whether or not you actually contributed anything to the team. If you are killing the same six level 1-5 characters every round you'll end up with 24 kills at a minimum. I don't really feel like killing 6 peasants contributes much, but hey, the scoreboard certainly thinks it does.

On another note, I'd like to mention that although my current setup is rather light, I've also gone through quite a few gens where I wore quite heavy armor. Including a gen where I wore triple heirloomed Rus Scale with Lordly Hourglass Gauntlets. I don't wear heavy armor like that nowadays mostly because it bored me. I don't enjoy moving slowly as much as moving quickly and I don't really enjoy killing people because they glanced on me, or getting hit 3 times and then winning because they couldn't take the same 3 hits. It just doesn't do it for me.

Offline ArchonAlarion

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2011, 06:17:14 pm »
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Hey, I have an idea, why not counter plate as it was countered in historically (to retain realistic armor protection, but keep it balanced)?

FIREARMS.

Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Upkeep system flawed
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2011, 06:36:46 pm »
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Originally, I understood why upkeep was implemented. At this point though, do we really need it?

Since Strategus is back, why can't we have that for the super-serious playing and have plain old CRPG for fun?

It seems that every patch lately has reduced the fun factor a bit. I don't give a shit if I have to fight 100 plated chargers with fully armored riders carrying steel shields. I don't care if someone has 10,000 heirlooms. I'm still going to use the same gear I've always used.

Can't we just get back to what made this game fun in the first place? Buying new shit and hitting people with swords?
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