Limit 2 hand swing speed

[Leshma]

the polearm swing is even faster

Yes it is, that's the reason why I'm going to invest all my wpf in polearms as soon I hit lvl 31 and retire.

Currently I'm 1H+shield/friendly archer combo which means I have 111 wpf in 1H which is really low. I've tried to use Side Sword but I gave up on that and picked Broad One Handed Battle Axe. With my current setup I'm doing 3 times better than I did with Side Sword which is a terrible weapon imo. Right now I'm again being useful for my team and my scores are back to those I made as a Ninja with 140 wpf. I'm not good at manual blocking but I had no trouble playing as Ninja. I had awesome movement and swing speed, so I could spam those who don't know manual block at all and insecure shielders. Also spammers weren't much of a problem because they are predictable. Playing as a Ninja isn't harder than playing sword&board. Both builds require patience & skill. Skilless build atm is strength barmace (lolcrush) build. You are a bit slower than the others but you wear good armor and stay slightly beside your team, when comes to clusterfuck you're the one with most kills and there isn't an ounce of skill involved in those kills.

1H isn't hero build, it's made for teamplay. Shielders working together are the most dangerous gang on the battlefield, especially if they put some skill point into throwing. 2H and polearms are made for lone wolves, hero type of players which can't get in their heads how come that group of 5 shielders killed him/her.

[Rextard]

I'm tired of the association between 2handers and skill. It's a fallacious association. If you think fallacious has something to do with fellatio, then don't respond, you may already be a moron.

Why is it a fallacious proposition of the relationship between kills and skills? 2handers get a kill in 1 or 2 hits. This means they need to accumulate far fewer successful hits to get a kill, and in turn need to parry fewer times. For all these claims about parrying in most fights against 2handers, I score hits not by getting them when they're parrying the wrong side, but when they aren't parrying at all, because they simply don't parry as much as is professed on these forums.

What we relate to skill in terms of players, is what the player can do with what the mechanics give them. The issue 1her's continually bump up against in playing is that what the mechanics give them is not equivalent in emergence to what the 2handers get from the mechanic. There is no comparison in the amount of 1handers, no matter how skilled, getting as many kills as a 2hander. Yet the claim is made that this is simply dependent on player skill.

My argument is this: The amount of skill needed to get kills for a 2hander is much less than for 1handers. 1h without shield you have less range and damage, and so have to be better at parrying to win 1 on 1. This disparity is also the case for 1h/shield users, because of the improper representation of shields in the game. If you don't agree with me, too bad. This wiki article does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield

"A shield is a type of personal armor, meant to intercept attacks, either by stopping projectiles such as arrows or redirecting a blow from a sword, mace or battle axe to the side of the shield-bearer." ...

"When used in fighting, shields were most effective when used to cause glancing blows. By deflecting a sword blow to the side, rather than blocking it head on, the attacker could be rendered open to a counterattack. This technique allowed the shield to be made lighter and more easily wielded, while reducing the amount of energy and risk of injury posed to the shied-bearer."

The deflective abilities of shields are not represented in this game, users are forced to take hits head on, rather than having any mechanical representation of what made shields useful in melee combat in the first place.

Do any of you understand that the people complaining are having a problem with the proposition that the game mechanics make about the use of shields? IT does not hold true to the state of affairs in reality.

[Gorath]

If you think fallacious has something to do with fellatio, then don't respond, you may already be a moron.

I giggled.   

[Rextard]

lol, I wasn't trying to offend. But I've run into that problem before with, let's just call it a medical professional who wears a tie. I was like....srsly?

 You do see my point right? The 'whining' happens at least on the 1h/shield issue because in game shields are just not what real shields are like. So if that issue is never addressed any new 1h/shield player may end up 'whining' about it.

Perhaps the most useful thing to do would be to explore and write up a list of in game mechanics that don't correlate to real life, and then sticky that shit. Then chadz could go through and just say what he intends on never changing or can't change because of hardcoding. Then it would at least be something to link to when people start 'whining' hopelessly.

[Siiem]

1H isn't hero build

I know a "hero" who would disagree.

[Majer]

Than onehanders could outspam everyone once they close in and it would be unplayable.

Man, you are really about to loose if a heavy shielded man is fast enough to get into close range. You can blast his shield off from the safe distance. Shielders are strong only in groups, and still only when they cooperate.
Paraphrasing:

Two handers can outspam every shielder whether they're close or not and this it is unplayable

2h advantage is good speed, weakness they are vulnerable for any kind of ranged

Agree

1h advantage no manual block and not vulnerable for any ranged, weakness they are whiners cause they dont have skills for manual block

Disagree, one-handers also vulnerable whenever we're about to attack. Shielders can close in safely, but only if ranged player is blind and does not fall back. Otherwise they're just bunch of idiots running around clueless, waiting for someone to get them.
Do I have to remind, that 2h also can take a shield for a walk?

polearm advantage very fast side slash, weakness they are vulnerable for any[quote kind of ranged (except when using a shield with it)

Fast slash, and decent thrust range, not mentioning crazy damage and ability to crush through decent shield in 3 hits.

you shielders are just a band of whining jerks who cant manual block for a shite,

You're wise man... in some parallel universe filled with morons. Firstly, if someone does not need to manual block it doesn't mean he isn't great at it.
 

and if you can manual block dont whine youve the choice to become 2h or polearm,

That's great! Screw the balance, abuse the errors!
The point of this topic is to make this game better, and not let donkeys like you run this discussion.

when you think 1h is shit why become a 1h???@#@#

It's just need to experience most that this game offers. You sureley did not have the opportunity to even play as onehander, so STFU.
Why did you become an idiot, if you knew it sucks?

and limit the 2h swing speed???
come on
the polearm swing is even faster

Such a great reason to throw it to the trash can! Why do you wash yourself? There are tons of bums dirtier than you!

@Camaris 2H mauls were impossible for me. If they swing from above - I couldn't get in attack range - so no benefit from faster 1h side swing, as for hammer attack from side - low enough swing will make shielder fall on ground always.


I didn't play cRPG a while, will need to check how does it look like.

[Neostralie]

Shield should have a direction of "blocking" like unshielded blocking in witch they won't take damage from weapons.
You also lower the speed of the bigger ones and the lighter and less resiliant shield would be of great interest of efectivness and fun.

But I think this is harcoded so...

[EponiCo]

@Rextard

You are wrong. Skilled shielder will get good scores, too. Having played different characters, I'd say a correctly built shielder is in fact easier to do good with.
Shield mechanic from balance perspective is ok, it gives easy defence but weak offence, which balances out. And you can in fact block and counterattack at the same time, it's called chamberblock, but it's too hard to use for normal players (spam sometimes lucks into them, though). From gameplay perspective, I'd agree, mechanics aren't really good, but that means change, not just nerf of 2h.
That 2h can use spam and range instead of blocking is a good thing, since just swing-block-swing would get stale fast. What is wrong imo is that with the extreme movement speeds possible you don't really need to block as 2h and can rely on running entirely, but same is with turtle running randomly through crowd to cause chaos and teamkills.

[Leshma]

turtle running

[UrLukur]

If your question is why 2h/Pole get more kills? Because they always start attacks. They always get the momentum of the fight.
The first thing a shield user is doing is he sees a 2hander is blocking.

If you 1h/Shield-Guys would be more aggressive you would get more kills but that is what the majority of you is lacking.

Yeah, try to attack first with weapon which have 40 less effective range than your opponent ... wait. Animations. Consider the animations before posting such stupid ideas. Oh, and i often strike first against polearms and 2h users, they are most likely surprised like hell because nobody do this.

OMG OMFG

again again and again,
I'm getting pissed of you bloody whiners,

2h advantage is good speed, weakness they are vulnerable for any kind of ranged

2h advantage is RANGE, DAMAGE, SPEED, MOVEMENT SPEED, BETTER STATS (no need to put points in shield skill), STUN.

1h advantage no manual block and not vulnerable for any ranged, weakness they are whiners cause they dont have skills for manual block

No manual block comes with slower feints, less responsive attacks and block (check shield animations), higher upkeep. Invulnerability against ranged ? Since when ? Shield user have to hold rmb to block (without holding it shield does not protect against threat we are trying to deal with), so we can't run. This, coupled with slower movement and inability to run holding rmb makes us easier targets to shoot at than 2h users. Get it ?

you shielders are just a band of whining jerks who cant manual block for a shite,
and if you can manual block dont whine youve the choice to become 2h or polearm,
when you think 1h is shit why become a 1h???@#@#

and limit the 2h swing speed???
come on
the polearm swing is even faster

greetz, Berend

I can manual block better than you (after i warm up with it)
2h and Polearms should be not only choices and forcing people to play them is plain idiocy from your side.
Some of us perhaps LIKE HOW 1H LOOK LIKE

So ? Nerf polearm speed and 2h speed then. Or fix shield animations and mechanic. Or both.

[Cepeshi]

I am tired of arguments such as: but 2her can take a shield for a walk too, cmon, i choose 2h build so i would not have to carry shield around! Why to force me get piece of equip i dont want to buy/wear/upkeep?

I do not mind being hit by arrows if i cannot dodge, i try to get better at blocking, and purely outrunning you with 2h spec might be possible for agi stackers, but not for str oriented builds or, in smaller extent,  hybrids (imagine 9str rest agi or something vs 21str 15 agi, you WILL notice difference).

2H swing speed was already downed by 1 for the top tier swords, so iirc German Greatsword is same speed as Bar Mace now. And, actually, you should be able to swing fast while you are holding JUST your weapon, not being slowed by shield or anything.

PS: i saw sone swordboarders let go off shield in order to be faster than me, so, maybe try that? i know it is not viable for crowded fights and such, but still, without shield 1hers are faster, and as you are getting agi for shield skill(are you?) you should be able to backpeddal str build but vs agi build, gonna be fun

i have to roll 1H er to try it out actually

[UrLukur]

I am tired of arguments such as: but 2her can take a shield for a walk too, cmon, i choose 2h build so i would not have to carry shield around! Why to force me get piece of equip i dont want to buy/wear/upkeep?

I do not mind being hit by arrows if i cannot dodge, i try to get better at blocking, and purely outrunning you with 2h spec might be possible for agi stackers, but not for str oriented builds or, in smaller extent,  hybrids (imagine 9str rest agi or something vs 21str 15 agi, you WILL notice difference).

2H swing speed was already downed by 1 for the top tier swords, so iirc German Greatsword is same speed as Bar Mace now. And, actually, you should be able to swing fast while you are holding JUST your weapon, not being slowed by shield or anything.

PS: i saw sone swordboarders let go off shield in order to be faster than me, so, maybe try that? i know it is not viable for crowded fights and such, but still, without shield 1hers are faster, and as you are getting agi for shield skill(are you?) you should be able to backpeddal str build but vs agi build, gonna be fun

i have to roll 1H er to try it out actually

Fail post, backpedal helps 2h and poles in combat.

[Cepeshi]

Would not say so, maybe for them ninjas or agi stackers, but for str builds? The turtle if lowered shield is faster in movement forward then me backwards...and if he facehugs me, i cannot pretty much do anything xcept try to kick him and go thru with hammer or something

[UrLukur]

Would not say so, maybe for them ninjas or agi stackers, but for str builds? The turtle if lowered shield is faster in movement forward then me backwards...and if he facehugs me, i cannot pretty much do anything xcept try to kick him and go thru with hammer or something

2h are effective at very close range. They can bypass shield and deal crapload of damage due to their innate higher damage ... Just blocking is more problematic.

[Gorath]

2h are effective at very close range.

This is actually a pet peeve of mine.  With most 1h'd weapons it's actually detrimental to "facehug" as the weapon will glance much much more (especially thrusts and overheads).  You really have to use the "sweet spot" when using a 1her.  However on my 2her and my polearm character (and you can see other 2h/pole guys do this as well) it's actually better for me to facehug people as I hit them sooner in the animation and all I have to do is aim downwards a little bit towards the feet.  It's annoying that 2hers/pole guys are more effective facehuggers than those of us with 100 or less reach (fucking 64 reach on some weapons  )