Author Topic: Jobs, Gold and Repair  (Read 6513 times)

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Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2011, 12:27:14 am »
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>Stop It<
I think you have misread my post - the gold sink I was talking about is the equivalent of infantry's plate to archers. i.e., very high quality albeit very expensive top equipment that you cannot use every round. The easiest to implement is through the arrow stacks. Will you pay more for another +1 damage quiver? How much will you pay for 5 more arrows in a quiver? How about +2 or 10 more arrows?

What I am talking about is giving them a small BOOST through un-sustainable upkeep on some new items, not replacing the current ones. Don't want it? keep your current gear and hoard the money.

Offline IG_Saint

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2011, 02:23:58 am »
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There might be a certain maximum point in theory, but with appropriate design even the most hardcore players can continue making real gains - slower and slower though it may be - without hitting that limit almost indefinitely.  Where the game engine demands limitations, let there be stat allocation limitations if need be; e.g. make 200 wpf or whatever number the max.  If attaining a higher level resulted in having excess wpp beyond that, there's always putting points into a different weapon. 

Given the current game design, there's really no reason in these terms why the level cap couldn't be considerably higher.  Even if limits need to be set on whatever stats to prevent 'game-breaking' situations, there is more than enough room for players to expand with multiple skill specializations.  Iron flesh, athletics, shield, power throw, riding... lots of ways to expand a build if you could go further than is currently possible.

But that would completely ruin the choices you have to make when making a character. Currently you have to choose if you want to be a inf, cav, ranged or hybrid. You can't be all those things at the same time. With your suggestions the only choice you'd have to make is what do you want to start as and then just grind long enough until you can do everything.

And what about the skill issue that Dehitay raised? Player skill (things like feinting, blocking, positioning and timing) is a major part of the warband system. It's the reason I enjoy warband as much as I do and I have no doubt that it's the same for a great deal of people. My main issue with cRPG used to be the fact that character skills/lvl and equipment could replace player skill. Currently that isn't the case, a lvl 30 has an advantage over lower lvl characters, but player skill is still the biggest factor in which player will win.
Adding more lvls and beter items increases the character skill gap and thus takes away the importance of player skill. Imagine a lvl10 vs a lvl30. Currently if the lvl10 is a good player and the lvl30 sucks, the lvl10 has a good chance of winning. Now imagine a lvl20 vs a lvl60...Yeah, good luck winning that fight even if the lvl60 is a complete idiot.

But what seems the silliest to me is how quickly you reach the top now.  Okay, sure, if you forgo retirement you could eventually go up.. a few more levels.  Or with retirements, you can get some small bonuses from heirlooming stuff.  Still, consider how quickly I can purchase and use (though not -all- the time, with repair costs) the best equipment - the most expensive at least - as opposed to how very long it takes to get the relatively small bonuses from heirlooming:  Let's say that the average bonus multiplier is 2x, so you're earning 100 gold and 2000 xp per minute on average.  (Slighter less with repair costs, but I'll ignore that.)  So in.. under 6 hours, I can earn enough gold to buy Black Armor, with 60 points of body armor.  But reaching retirement, so I get heirloom that armor for a few more armor points.. that's something like 73 hours of total play time.

On this I somewhat agree with you, it does seem odd that you can afford the best items in no time when reaching retirement lvl takes so long. But this could easily be solved by simply decreasing the amount of xp needed for 31.

If it were me designing the system of play from the ground up, I would make it take much longer for a player to get this top-of-the-line type equipment.  Granted, you want a curve of reward that is somewhat faster at the beginning, and after some point the progress must become much slower.  But if you can get to within 90-95% of the max in a few weeks of playing.. that just isn't a curve designed for longevity.

The bolded part is really the crux of the matter, because you're right. The current system just isn't designed for longevity through character progression. That would indicate the devs don't want that kind of longevity, possibly because it brings with it so many problems, like the things that I have already mentioned: too high stats breaking the game, loss of any real choice in character creation and how much time you've spend grinding replacing how good you are at the game.

Now.. better diversity of game features is more important than all of that.  Not that there is any reason why there shouldn't also be a well-considered achievement curve, in addition to more game modes, Strategus, etc.  But these issues seem especially significant now, given the general lack of new game features over the past however many months.  Hopefully there will be some remedy on that front some time in the not too distant future, but as of now, when there's little else to do but fight, fight, and fight again while leveling up.. the unnecessary inelegance of the leveling/equipment system become more and more painful.

This is just a result of cRPG being a mod with a small dev team. The devs all have jobs/school/friends/other hobbies that eat up much of their time. That leaves precious little time to spend on coding new things like game modes (which seem pretty tricky to code, since of the 3 newly added game modes in the last patch only 1 is actually working atm).

Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2011, 01:01:11 pm »
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I guess the system is made for everybody, hardcore gamer may find it light, but casual can play.

This mod is fuckin addicting, so you play, you play, you play and you play....
At one time you may find this repetitive, but you continue playing till you are disgusted, hey you played more than 1000 hours....

Offline Teeth

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2011, 01:09:46 pm »
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How is it unrealistic that not everyone can run around in plated gear? Upkeep system works like a charm, you can really wear a shitload of equipment before you start to lose gold, so you really dont need to spend time to save up. Armor is for the weak anyway.

Offline Ylca

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2011, 02:08:03 pm »
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The marketplace has made upkeep trivial. The people who have more time sell one heirloom for about 300 too 400K and then never worry about upkeep again.

I sold one heirloom at around the time the marketplace opened up, i've been running around in about 100K of gear on average and i'm just starting to see a minor dent in my funds.

Upkeep is pretty much a joke at the moment, the only way i could lose all this money is if i chose to ride a plated charger every round, which instead i "just" ride a charger on cav map. It's a little ridiculous.

Problem is if you increase upkeep you penalize new players and those who don't have the time to get multiple heirlooms to sell. On the other hand if some change isn't made people like me will have a serious advantage over others, i see people choosing to get off their destriers for lack of money when i can afford to ride a charger every single round. There's a bit of unbalance there.

Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2011, 05:31:10 pm »
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But that would completely ruin the choices you have to make when making a character. Currently you have to choose if you want to be a inf, cav, ranged or hybrid. You can't be all those things at the same time. With your suggestions the only choice you'd have to make is what do you want to start as and then just grind long enough until you can do everything.

Oh, I don't know about that.  It would take ages to become, say, an effective 1h+shielder tank + horse archer.  I mean, I generally do only Powerstrike + Weapon Master, so I'd be adding Iron Flesh and Athletics before I even thought about expanding with cavalry or ranged.  And with the slot system.. would it really matter that much anyway?  If I'm carrying a long bow + arrows, I only have one slot left - so I couldn't also have a 1h + shield, or any 2h, or most any polearm on me.  Perhaps a few additional combinations would become feasible, but by and large, at best, a person might be able to play 1h + shielder one round, then switch to horse archer or whatever the next round.  It would be mostly like having an alt.. except it would be much, much easier to just level up an alt. 

Besides, easy way out of that with retirement:  You start with a level cap of say 31 or so, and that increases by 1 each retirement.  That drastically increases the time it would take to reach even 35, 40.  Anyone who aspires to have an uber-character, then, is going to be spending a lot of their time at lower levels.  Further, when retirement first came around, with each generation the required level to retire went up as well; so it could be set so that you have to hit 31 for your first retirement, 32 for your second, and so on. 

It also used to cost some gold to retire, more each retirement, and I think that would allow for a far better alternative to the current upkeep system:  I don't necessarily object to repair costs in general, but only that you can be losing more money in repairs than you are earning each round.  Better if more expensive equipment had a gold-gain penalty such that wearing 'too good' of gear could even stop gold gain completely - but not so far as to cost money you've already saved.  That may not work now, because there's really nothing you need gold for once you have the equipment you want to use.  But if you needed gold to retire - an increasing amount each generation, perhaps - then you have  a nice incentive (rather than a mandate) to use lower-tier equipment.


So.. okay, okay.  Let's say someone plays a lot, daily, for two years or something and finally reaches level 60.  All Lordly plate armor, max Iron Flesh.  A real tank.  What's the problem with that?  Yeah, a level 10 probably can't kill him.  But.. that's kind of a silly test.  It doesn't take long to level up from 10.  Heck, if you're a casual player, you can Skip the Fun and get right to 30.  Even leveling 1-30 doesn't take too long.  A really good 25-30 player with an appropriate build would have a fair shot even against a super-tank.  I used to have Lordly Gothic Plate w Bevor back in the earlier days of retirement; when you get whacked by someone with high Power Strike, it still does a heck of a lot of damage.  And in any case, a player like that would encourage people to play as a team rather than a bunch of solo duelists ignoring their fellow teammates;  there's not a whole lot you can do if 2-3 cooperating players are on you at once, no matter how well armored you are.  I don't think we need to worry so much about 1v1 parity - that's why we have team autobalance.   

Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2011, 05:57:30 pm »
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in fact its simple, a player should not have a big advantage because he plays a lot, and that´s the case now.

cRPG is not grinding, its customizing... Something like pimp my char.
Your proposal will give too much advantage to no lifers, having better gear or high lvl only because you spend a lot of time is not equality.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 05:59:02 pm by Gheritarish le Loki »

Offline Grimm3r

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2011, 07:58:43 pm »
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OP...

By your logic, EVERYONE would be running around in full plate on plated charges with a great lance and the weapons of their choice.

Pre-repair patch, the game was headed in that direction. Now, hardly anyone uses plate as it is expensive to repair. That's how it should be. I know it sucks if you have to work for lots of hours, but at the same time can you not see that if this game became watered down to cater to every casual person, it would be tenfold worse than it is now.

Offline Ylca

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2011, 11:46:33 pm »
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Again, sell the first loom you get for 325K or  more, never worry about upkeep again. Eventually everyone will get a loom point. The smart ones never have to worry about upkeep ever again, unless they just have to have a plated charger.

Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2011, 03:36:49 pm »
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in fact its simple, a player should not have a big advantage because he plays a lot, and that´s the case now.

cRPG is not grinding, its customizing... Something like pimp my char.
Your proposal will give too much advantage to no lifers, having better gear or high lvl only because you spend a lot of time is not equality.

If that were the case, then every character should just start out at level 30 with 50k gold; no leveling, just customizing your stats and trying out different equipment - and you can re-spec for free, any time.

(As a side note, if there is concern for making the game more playable for casual players, it actually would be a good idea to allow free re-specs.  Maybe once per week or so.  Because if you don't have that much time to play, it's a heck of a wait to either retire or level up an alt just to see what it would be like to be an archer, etc.)

Anyway, it's kind of amusing when someone who wants the game to be so playskill-dependent is so worried about 'no-lifers' getting an advantage over them.  People who are really good at videogames.. well, they're generally the people who spend a lot of time playing videogames. 

If anything, the concern with 'no-lifers' having too much of an advantage over more casual players would suggest lessening the influence of playing skill, given that the average casual player is going to be far less skilled than someone who plays for hours every single day.  And that would be well-served by a leveling design more like the one I suggested, wherein hardcore 'no-lifer' players would have an incentive to use cheaper equipment (to save up gold for retirement) and would spend much of their time at lower levels from multiple retirements, while casual players could just forgo retirement and use the equipment they liked without worrying so much about earning more gold.


Offline Dehitay

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2011, 05:27:40 pm »
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- and you can re-spec for free, any time.

(As a side note, if there is concern for making the game more playable for casual players, it actually would be a good idea to allow free re-specs. 

Really? Ignoring the playerbase telling you this is a primarily skill based system wasn't enough? Now you're not even going to pay attention to what you say yourself. All this from the brilliant mind that brought you "If you're concerned with no-lifers having too much of an advantage, I suggest lessening the influence of playing skill in favor of a levelling design"

Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2011, 08:01:12 pm »
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so a no lifer is better because he plays a lot (not sure about that but anyway) and you want to give him better gear and more lvl... Dude i´m happy that dev team doesn´t think like you, hopefully they have a better knowledge of game mechanics and how to make a big game. Btw warband still exist bdcause crpg is here, and it´s here since a long time because it was i.tended for all players.

Offline Barbas

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2011, 09:00:16 pm »
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so a no lifer is better because he plays a lot (not sure about that but anyway) and you want to give him better gear and more lvl...

Hrm.. well if you read my post, you'd see I suggested that retirement should cost money - an increasing amount each time - which would give inventive for hardcore players not to use the best equipment.  As has already been mentioned, long-term, hardcore players often have millions in gold saved up and can sell their heirloom points since they probably don't need them by now anyway, so really it is already the current state of things that 'no-lifers' can use the best gear, while more casual players cannot.

Offline Baggy

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Re: Jobs, Gold and Repair
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2011, 03:27:55 am »
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Naw, I was here 9-10 months ago before there was upkeep - back when they were first thinking about adding it to the game.

And.. the game was somewhat better back then, I'm sorry to say.  It was also possible to attain a considerably higher level -

Fail.

Quote
though the benefits of retiring were good enough that most everyone wanted to do it.
Fail.
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