Author Topic: Two questions on weapon animations  (Read 2396 times)

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Offline Teeth

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 11:44:44 am »
0
Believe it or not, I have a level 31 2h alt with 69 body armor which I played regularly. My experience is that increasing armor rating reinforces the superiority of long and powerful weapon over fast weapons when it comes to hiltslashing. In general I would prefer a longsword over a great bardiche, but if my goal is to hiltslash more easily and do more damage each time I do, I'd always go with the bardiche. Speed rating actually becomes more important with weapons that are too weak to hiltslash with.
I know you do. Critical here is the difference between a Longsword and a Great Bardiche, which is -9 speed and +10 cut. Which perhaps might lead to more efficient hiltslashing damage to speed ratio wise, though I wouldn't even dare claim it to be faster or easier. The weapon that I would propose would be about -30 speed and about +3 cut. Nobody is proposing a 50 cut Looney Toons Axe and it's not gonna hiltslash fast.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 04:12:33 pm »
+2
There are so many factors you guys are leaving out in this discussion.  :rolleyes:
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Offline SP1N

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2014, 06:28:19 pm »
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Tydeus, grant us commoners the wonders of damage notifications, pls. Even if just in duel server.
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Offline Bars

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2014, 06:45:04 pm »
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I dunno why, but all 2h fighters have same fight style. Swing from left, run, thrust, hit from right and left, run, thrust hit. Its almost every fight so. Hate it! Do u know? if u block his swing, and try get him with left or right swing, u cant get him, while he run away, and make thrust hit in same time as u...and u get damage.  :evil: If i hadded long voulge , they couldnt run away! Shielders wasnt for me problem, but 1h fighters was. 2h wasnt for me problem, but 2h spamm like Khorin style was. And vs polearm fighter...it was boring fight, u must run away and get him with length u weapon.

So wich problem u haved with Long Voulge? To get my unique style with it, i needed 4 months of continuous training. U see, i dont use chambers, kicks. Whyle its useless. If u have such slow weapon as Voulge or maul, u enemy can block u hits after kick or chamber. 

Sry for my bad english  :mrgreen:
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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 06:47:43 pm »
+1
Tydeus, grant us commoners the wonders of damage notifications, pls. Even if just in duel server.

Not sure if it was just a glitch, but one time I was in Jack1's new event server and had damage notifications popping up. It was pretty handy, though I am not 100% sure if it was accurate (I mean, I can't exactly check it on an official server). The damage values seemed reasonable though... my 44 cut, 6 PS, 8 ath speed bonus long axe dealt 18-22 damage against a medium-armored foe. Assuming that damage dealt = hit points lost, this makes sense, since most medium armored enemies die in 3-4 hits... 3 hits meaning that I deal anywhere from 54 to 66 damage, which corresponds to someone with minimal IF but a decent amount of strength. Still, no reason that such a thing should be withheld from us (at least on a practice server).
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Offline San

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 07:22:42 pm »
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If you're high enough admin and press 'B', there's a decent chance it'll work even on unofficial servers.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2014, 07:26:51 pm »
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There are so many factors you guys are leaving out in this discussion.  :rolleyes:
Feel free to enlighten us after you are done making the Long Voulge four-directional.

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2014, 07:31:22 pm »
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We're waiting on certain EU players to vote :)

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2014, 10:33:17 pm »
+3
Feel free to enlighten us after you are done making the Long Voulge four-directional.
Well then...

You can't talk about how effective a weapon's damage value will be, unless you have a target armor value. I was just saying yesterday, that a difference of 19 raw damage on my swings, was only amounting to a difference of 2 final damage, 42-61 raw -> 4-6 final. Now of course, I ended up with a rather poor roll on the 61 raw swing, and good rolls on the hits with lower raw, which makes things seem worse than they really are. Nonetheless, this is a good example of why the weapon's damage value can never provide the whole picture.

Then you have weapon speed, which is indeed highly important, but it's still directly related to damage output. This is relevant, because certain damage values allow you to hit further outside of a sweetspot than others. When up against 70+ armor, hitting outside of your sweetspot with a low to medium cut damage weapon, tends to be a bad idea with many builds. Likely, the main reason the bastard sword is generally favored below either the longsword or heavy bastard sword, is due to the low base damage value. That is, you reach certain thresholds in speed and damage, where trading damage for speed(or speed for damage) becomes less beneficial. When you take WPF into consideration, that lower speed weapons see larger changes in effective speed from wpf, in comparison to higher speed weapons, you further convolute the relation between weapon speed and damage. Not only must you consider the tradeoffs between speed and damage on the weapon, you have to do it for the character build as well.

Next, you have sweetspots and animations. What people don't realize with sweetspots, is that your weapon can fall both within and outside of the sweetspots, on the same exact frame. Why is this? First some info on what sweetspots are, for horizontal swings. Sweetspots are the angles between the attacking player's forward vector and the vector that passes through the contact point(location of the bone hit) with the attacking player's location as its origin, where damage first becomes possible, reaches full damage potential, begins to decrease again, and then reaches zero. Now, here are two pictures to help give an idea as to why this can be.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Now, the two circles are the closest and farthest points that you can hit someone. The red lines are the vectors that would be created using the contact point, and the blue line(which should actually be straight in front of the character), is just a static vector used to find the angle that figures out where in the sweetspot a hit will fall. Notice anything peculiar about these animations yet? What if I told you the 2h animation was at 38% progression, and the polearm animation was at 36%, and you can even (probably) hit as early as 28%, due to the hit "bar" always extending from the right hand.

But why's this matter for hilt slashing? Well, how much does weapon speed actually matter when you can potentially hit 10% earlier in the animation, regardless of the weapon's speed to damage ratio? Really, I'm not sure there's a clear best weapon or best damage/speed relation among our current weapons. Only the best in a specific setting.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 10:36:43 pm by Tydeus »
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Offline Jona

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2014, 11:35:21 pm »
+2
Feel free to enlighten us after you are done making the Long Voulge four-directional.

"Enlightenment."

Confirmed: long voulge now 4-directional.
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2014, 01:15:42 pm »
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.. and bill and halberd.

Offline WITCHCRAFT

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 05:16:01 pm »
+4
Personally, I like that we have 2D polearms that favor overheads rather than thrusts. It adds more variety and allows a different playstyle compared to a long awlpike or ashwood pike. If any of them were changed to 4D, the swing damage would need to be greatly reduced, even if the speed was lowered. Fauchard, long hafted blade, glaive, and great long bardiche already offer plenty of variety in the "long 4D polearm" category.

Hmm, what if they had an alternate mode with 4D polearm animations and reduced speed/damage compared to 2D mode? Can that be done?
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2014, 05:21:29 pm »
+3
Hmm, what if they had an alternate mode with 4D polearm animations and reduced speed/damage compared to 2D mode? Can that be done?
That is certainly an option.
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Two questions on weapon animations
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2014, 12:05:26 am »
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Nice idea.