Agi

[Jarl_Onurb]

As you all might know, armor weight reduces WPF by percentage ( more precentaje while heavier the armor) so heavy armor does a bigger WPF reduction on AGI character than in a STR character. But the problem is that the WPF reduction depends only in armor weight, so a 16.5 weight armor will reduce the same percentage in both tipe of characters; I think that the WPF reduction should depend not only in the armor weight but also in the character strength, because if you are stronger then it should be easier for you to use the armor.

Armor weight
Armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)
Effective armor weight = 2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 4*hand armor weight - 10
(Source: WaltF4, updated 31.7.2012 based on the new formula)

This means that every point of armor weight with helmet weight multiplied by 2 and glove weight multiplied by 4  over 10 reduces your wpf by 1%. Or the same put other way, any effective armor weight from the above equation reduces your wpf 1% per 1 point.

Effective WPF
There are three possible factors reducing your wpf from what is listed on the character sheet. First reduce your wpf by 13 for each point of power throw, then reduce your wpf by 14 for each point of power draw and then remove 1% of remaining wpf for each point of effective weight. For effective weight, see armor weight chapter above.

The same mathematically:
(wpf - 13*pt - 14*pd) * (1 - effective weight / 100)

http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/

I think that is the actual Effective WPF formula.


Sorry if i didn't expressed myself properly, english is not my main language.

[Panos_]

But the problem is that the WPF reduction depends only in armor weight, so a 16.5 weight armor will reduce the same percentage in both tipe of characters; I think that the WPF reduction should depend not only in the armor weight but also in the character strength, because if you are stronger then it should be easier for you to use the armor.

You got it all wrong, everything has WPF penalties, body armour x1, gloves x4, leg and head armour x2. Meaning that.  even though your gloves may weight 1kg, the penalty at your WPF will count as if you were wearing 4kg gloves, same goes for head armour and leg armour.

As you all might know, armor weight reduces WPF by percentage ( more precentaje while heavier the armor) so heavy armor does a bigger WPF reduction on AGI character than in a STR character.

 But still, an agility based build will still have a lot more WPF, COMBINED with the heavy armour, meaning : TANKY + SWING EFFECTIVE (Speed bonus) , while on the other hand a STR build will only deal RAW DAMAGE due to the lack of WPF and ATH, thus losing the speed bonus, which for a stupid reason the damage is higher than the actual raw damage   

[Akynos]

Playing with a full str STF right now, I have to say that agi-builds are harder than before, but I wouldn't say OP, at least not in duels. Its harder to outplay your oponent, but you make up in survivability and in punishing power.

[justme]

what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str

[Akynos]

what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str

True, with speed bonus and increased WPF agiwhores deal a truckload of damage

[Jarl_Onurb]

You got it all wrong, everything has WPF penalties, body armour x1, gloves x4, leg and head armour x2. Meaning that.  even though your gloves may weight 1kg, the penalty at your WPF will count as if you were wearing 4kg gloves, same goes for head armour and leg armour.

When I said armor I was refering to every tipe of armor(chest,hands,head,legs).

But still, an agility based build will still have a lot more WPF, COMBINED with the heavy armour, meaning : TANKY + SWING EFFECTIVE (Speed bonus) , while on the other hand a STR build will only deal RAW DAMAGE due to the lack of WPF and ATH, thus losing the speed bonus, which for a stupid reason the damage is higher than the actual raw damage   

And that is how it should work, an AGI character should always swing faster than an STR character(unless the STR has an cimitar and the AGI a maul or something like that).

The main idea that I wanted to propose is to make the WPF percentage reduction lower while more STR.

[Jona]

what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str

Imo the only agi whores that deal a truckload of damage are the  ones carrying pointy sticks around. Speed bonus on stabs really needs to be looked at... in all honestly swing speed bonus doesn't seem that out of hand at all. Some whimpy guy with only 4 PS shouldn't be able to 2-hit me (6 IF, fully loomed kuyak my old friend) with a shortened spear or something similar.

Also, something that is always overlooked in these kind of threads is that agi is a double edged sword. You might be able to run real fast and get speed bonus behind your swings to do good damage, but should you mess up and your enemy hits you first, well all that speed bonus is now used against your already frail body. At least with strength you get higher attack power without the risk of it being used against you.

[Panos_]

And that is how it should work, an AGI character should always swing faster than an STR character(unless the STR has an cimitar and the AGI a maul or something like that).

what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str

True, with speed bonus and increased WPF agiwhores deal a truckload of damage

This is my current problem with the mod, WHY THE FUCK, a player with a longsword a plate armour and an agility based build, can take half my HP with a swing, while I with a 48 cut weapon, will need 4 hits to put him down?

Things are pretty simple, I`m not asking for anything crazy, IF YOU WANT TO BE FAST, THEN BE, BUT BE A WEAKLING, NOT A FUCKING TANK.

[spiritus]

Agility, compared to Srength is seriously OP.

But nothing won`t change, because the majority of "good"  players are agility whores, thus lobbying for it to stay strong.

I dunno man being able to 1-2 shot a agi build while they need 4-6 plus! Im not saying agi isnt strong but for fuk sake str isnt weak!

[phnxhdsn]

21/21 MASTER RACE

[Thranduil]

(click to show/hide)

Here's the thing. I'm in light armor and I'm fighting a guy in heavy armor using my MW Liuyedao (103 speed) against his MW Longsword (100 speed). Now I know 2h swing animations are borked, but I start my swings first each time. I'm halfway through my swing when he starts his swing, so with the marginally faster weapon, I should hit first, but damn it all if he doesn't hit me first every bloody time! In HEAVY armor no less!

How heavy? This heavy: Mongolian Elite Armor with lamellar gauntlets, and some equivalently heavy head and leg armor, so weight = body: 20.7, head: ~2, glove: 0.9, leg: ~2 -- penalty from weight at least 30, so unless he has 9 WM, I will have more effective wpf, and even if he does have 9WM, the difference will be no more than a few wpp. Very marginal. I'm wearing Leather Scale armor with Green Steppe Helmet and Eastern Lamellar Greaves, so weight = 4.5 body, 1.4 head, 1.1 leg, no gloves. My 157 wpf isn't affected. Of course, he could have been level 32+ for all I know with 10 WM! 

Now it took him 3 body hits to kills me which is why I'm assuming only 4 PS and a minimum of 13 STR for his armor. Yes, AGI builds have to hit more to get the kill, but when they can start their swing AFTER you and hit you BEFORE you hit them, then fuck! You're fucked!

I fully support the idea of scaling armor requirements. In fact, with the current wpf formula, I think it's something that needs to be done. Maybe not quite to where San was thinking. 21 - 24 for the heaviest of armors probably. This would make STR a more viable build, and would probably balance out the variety of builds in general. You'd still have AGI builds, but you'd see more STR and balanced builds again.

[San]

Trying to draft out some ideas that essentially buffs heavy and light armor looms: giving light armor less weight at +3 and heavy armor even more armor, but with additional weight (still better weight:armor ratio than right now). This would apply for helmets/boots, too. On the flipside, light-medium gloves get adjusted in a similar way to armor, but toned down- heavy gloves giving +5 armor with a weight penalty, while the lighter gloves become lighter in weight/weightless in some cases with a slight armor boost, and medium gloves somewhere in-between.

Agree with your idea of difficulty, Thranduil. I was just throwing out a number when thinking of milanese/gothic plate with bevor.

Even with the above idea, I need to refine it and make sure it makes sense/doesn't feel too punishing so that I could convince others it could work. Not entirely what I wish for gloves, but it will at least be a step forward imo instead of doing nothing.