how to buff shields?

[Phew]

Not sure how I feel about this. A very high shield skill user would  have a shield with amazing durability, low crushthrough chance, improved speed, and great coverage against all forces. I think that makes them too great against things that can counter them.

Fair points San. Further thoughts on the matter:

-The issue of lateral coverage against melee attacks wouldn't be an issue if everyone had 10ms ping and the servers were perfect; but they don't and they aren't, respectively. So sometimes when you are facing your shield directly at someone (on your screen), he's a few degrees to your side as far as the server is concerned, so he swings around your block. Something about the polearm animations make this even more common (especially spear sideswings). Ideally, we'd have a system where shields block semi-directionally (you point your shield to the left to get more coverage on your left side), but that sounds like a lot of work to implement. Every shield from Bucklers to Huscarl have the save crappy lateral coverage against melee, which is boring and unrealistic. I think a guy with a Huscarl and 13 shield skill should have the same lateral coverage against melee as manual blocking, and scale down from there.

-Crushthrough resistance isn't something I care too much about, since the best way to beat a mauler 1v1 has always been to drop your shield and just dance around. But when you are the first one up a ladder in siege, your teammates have some expectation that your shield enables you to "break through" their defenses, when it really just makes you a sitting duck against their maulers. I think there is some kind of bug with crushthrough, because 3.5 kg weapons seems much better at blocking crushthrough overheads than 6kg shields. I don't think it would be too much to ask for high shield skill to enable a typical 1-slot shield to block a 8 PS Mallet overhead ~50% of the time (right now it's about 5%). I don't have any expectation of blocking a 11PS +3 Great Maul overhead with a 5kg shield.

-Kafein brings up another point that I agree with; spending skill points above the shield's requirements should offer bigger rewards. Maybe even no benefit up to the requirement, and -2kg/skill point above the requirement? Same with any bolt penetration/coverage/etc tied to shield skill; no benefit up to the requirement, big benefits above the requirement.

-Now that the lower skill-requirement shields have decent resistance, the other weird thing with shield balance is their speed ratings. It's understandable why shields like the Huscarl and Heavy Round are slower, since they have great coverage against ranged and great durability. However, all those narrow+tall kite and heater shields have lousy speed ratings but narrow shields are craptacular at stopping projectiles. It seems like shield height is given too much credit in shield balance, when it's really the least important stat (even a buckler has great longitudinal coverage against projectiles from the front). Shields like the Heater/Normans should be ~94 speed to make up for their crappy lateral coverage against projectiles.

-13 shield skill shouldn't allow unbreakable shields. I say scale down the resistance bonus per skill point, but increase the base resistance for all shields. Heck, I'd be fine if shield skill didn't affect durability at all, just effective weight/bolt penetration resistance/coverage. Like I said, my shield outlives me 99% of the time anyway (due to all these mechanics that nullify shield blocks); I wish we could get to a point where shields actually do their job then break.

-Also, remove "usable with shield" from daggers. Those 36 agility Rondel dorks with an unbreakable shield are giving 1h/shield a bad name. Daggers should be deadly, but you should have to compromise your defense to use them.

[Leshma]

You use a shield which in this game uses usual right mouse button tap to block mechanics, everyone who's playing hack and slash games is familiar with it. Complaining about shield not being effective as manual blocking melee is just lame.

[San]

You're right. Shields in other games are usually much more overpowered at blocking.

[Leshma]

Other games suck. My point is that as long there is influx of new players, who aren't used to M&B mechanics, shield blocking should be inferior to manual blocking. What balancers did with shield and ranged buffs is just lame. When servers used to be full to the brim, twohanded and polearms were OP. Not silly builds like you and kinngrimm use.

[Tydeus]

Shields may be able to block multiple people/things at once, but their block angle for melee swings is narrower than if you manual blocked, not to mention blocking with a shield is almost always slower than manual blocking. If you're in a 1v1 with another melee, you're generally better off manual blocking if you're good at it.

[Phew]

You use a shield which in this game uses usual right mouse button tap to block mechanics, everyone who's playing hack and slash games is familiar with it. Complaining about shield not being effective as manual blocking melee is just lame.

You know that feeling when you block in the correct direction but the swing hits you anyway? It's rare enough for 2h/pole that you don't worry about it too much, but when you use a shield, nearly every encounter involves someone hitting you through/around your block. I used to carry an axe sidearm, but I stopped because you kill enemy shielders faster with a sword, just by swinging around/through their block+abusing the broken kick arc.

Obviously shields should have drawbacks, but failing to perform their most basic function (block melee attacks and projectiles) renders them pointless.

I say allow shields to actually do their job, but make them less durable.

[San]

And this topic is a discussion about how to properly balance shields. I'm sure there are those even among shielders that may not fully agree with how the buffs turned out (I'm personally trying to get some of the 4-5 tier shields to get tweaked back, change was already in place by the time I became a balancer). It'd be nice if people can come up with a solution that isn't just buffing shield stats everywhere. I agree that in this game that shielders should theoretically have some trouble against the pure 2h builds in 1v1, but I just thought it silly that you mention other games with really powerful shield skills.

@Phew
When looking at the shield sizes, many of the non-round shields are all mostly hovering around 45-50 width. The kite shields under 50 width get slightly better stats compared to normans and sacrifice coverage, and you see many similar such tradeoffs between all the different kinds of shields. Might need to try to see what it's like to use some of those shields nowadays, since I've also just dismissed them in the past. Still trying to get some answers on what's feasible with shield skill vs. what is hardcoded (would like to decrease shield's awkward 8% final damage mitigation and give it benefits in other areas).

[Grumbs]

I think shields should be very good defensive items against ranged and in group melee fights, but the weapons shouldn't be as good as they are. Its like having your cake and eating it, if you want strong overall defense you should sacrifice your attacking ability which isn't really the case atm.

So we should have very good shields so newbies can defend well, for defending in group fights and to protect against ranged. But they should not be such stabbing machines with such good damage even with the swings as they have now. The right/overhead is very long and the damage on cut got a huge buff with the changes to cut damage (no more glances) plus they have the op stab. They should be short range swinging weapons with fast but low damage imo

[Legs]

Right now it's not really worth it to put points into shield skill as a 2h weapon user, and the 0 requirement shields are just dead weight since they break after only 1-2 shots. As a result 2h users are pretty much defenseless when it comes to ranged weapons.

IMO you should:
- buff 1h mode of bastard-type weapons
- decrease weight of shields carried on the back

So that 2h players have a viable option for defense against ranged if they invest some points into shield skill. I can't really comment on any other balance issues since I almost never use shields, but personally I think that these changes would be nice.

[kinngrimm]

Many good points i have seen here.

@Rumblood
i hope that your suggestion about shield formation will be implemented, surly then keeping in mind to adjust somehow the movement speed of the dudes taking part in those formations so they can approach in sync ranged nests, without killing combat ablities when engaging in a fight.

Mauls have always crushed through shields if you hold them a sec, don't think it changed much
Can't say i've noticed the block stun. If you are getting your shield hit on by a great long axe you're in deep trouble anyway. Put the shield away

I think the buffs to shields have only improved the game, but 1 handers are still a bit too strong imo

I can live with the current way or the way before the patch, how crushthough effects shields. What i still dislike is that 3 feets away from a visual effect, the maul/mallet hits the floor while still hitting me, is that because of the shields coverage or because of the hitbox of the maul/mallet or why? Devs cant there anything be done about this?

I think there should be more reasons to get shield skill above requirement. What about a -0.5 kg/shield skill weight reduction bonus, plus -1 kg/shield skill over requirement ? Of course the problem with this is that you shouldn't be able to reduce your weight maluses with shield skill beyond what your shield actually weights.

The benefits of shieldskill, is for me also complettly open for debate, narrowing down the durability, if at the same time we would gain some better melee capabilites, i am all for it. Perhaps we can collect a few more idears, how to exchange or differentiate the shieldskill bonus.

And this topic is a discussion about how to properly balance shields. I'm sure there are those even among shielders that may not fully agree with how the buffs turned out (I'm personally trying to get some of the 4-5 tier shields to get tweaked back, change was already in place by the time I became a balancer). It'd be nice if people can come up with a solution that isn't just buffing shield stats everywhere. ...

this, also san, within all discussions i have seen you taking part in, you always kept a clear few on the subject at hand, i am glad that you are in the ballancing team congratz to that!

...
IMO you should:
- buff 1h mode of bastard-type weapons
- decrease weight of shields carried on the back
...

ok with me too, anything which would make a shield a viable choice for any class, and not restricting it onto a "specialised" class system, is ok with me. A shield always was not a weapon, but a choice of defense in this game and this mod, so it should go with pretty much any other weapon flawlessly and without restriction in that sense.

Shieldskill what should it be in the future?
It could in/decrease stats of shields or players. Which once would make sense to bind to this skill?
It could allow certain game mechnics to be more effectiv, like f.e blocking, nudging, withholding crushthrough in comparison to a 1h weapon only, having a chance of deflecting kicks, having better formation abilities, ... more idears please!

[Ronin]

Right now it's not really worth it to put points into shield skill as a 2h weapon user, and the 0 requirement shields are just dead weight since they break after only 1-2 shots. As a result 2h users are pretty much defenseless when it comes to ranged weapons.

IMO you should:
- buff 1h mode of bastard-type weapons
- decrease weight of shields carried on the back

So that 2h players have a viable option for defense against ranged if they invest some points into shield skill. I can't really comment on any other balance issues since I almost never use shields, but personally I think that these changes would be nice.

carrying shields were useless before patch, now I think the low tier shields are pretty good with the resistance+weight patch. Just check shields like shields with the "old" tag (old heater shield). They only weight 3.5 or so, it's not really bad if you use a long weapon (2h and pole weapons are long enough). And about bastard type weapons, I would divide my wpf between 2h/polearm if I was going to use such weapons. People don't seem to notice the fact that bastard type weapons are excellent hoplite weapons. Those weapons were meant to be used that way (only stabbing with shield+1 hand, swinging with two hands)


I think a buff to shields are no more needed, or shielder characters will be too strong compared to 2h/polearm. I think it is time to buff "dodging" so people who feel like using 2h/polearm weapons will be better equipped against archers. For that, I think decreasing missile speed of low tier bows (and crossbows... never forget crossbows) will be a good addition. I don't really like nerfs but this will make the game more properly designed while not nerfing good archers that much.

I think low tier bows should be viable alternatives to high tier bows, attack speed/hitting power wise.

[kinngrimm]

(click to show/hide)

carrying shields were useless before patch, now I think the low tier shields are pretty good with the resistance+weight patch. Just check shields like shields with the "old" tag (old heater shield). They only weight 3.5 or so, it's not really bad if you use a long weapon (2h and pole weapons are long enough). And about bastard type weapons, I would divide my wpf between 2h/polearm if I was going to use such weapons. People don't seem to notice the fact that bastard type weapons are excellent hoplite weapons. Those weapons were meant to be used that way (only stabbing with shield+1 hand, swinging with two hands)


I think a buff to shields are no more needed, or shielder characters will be too strong compared to 2h/polearm. I think it is time to buff "dodging" so people who feel like using 2h/polearm weapons will be better equipped against archers. For that, I think decreasing missile speed of low tier bows (and crossbows... never forget crossbows) will be a good addition. I don't really like nerfs but this will make the game more properly designed while not nerfing good archers that much.

I think low tier bows should be viable alternatives to high tier bows, attack speed/hitting power wise.

while i agree that the buff sofar for low tier shields was a good improvement, i disagree that should be the end of the discussion. As san said, medium to high tear sheilds, at least not all of them, didnt need that buff or not in any case the weight and the resistance buff. While the resistance buff against xbow penetration is solving a thing not solvable by the root, it also put up a problem not making shields too strong. The weight decrease put other problems in eyesight while i am not sure the aimed goal with that change was reached. So there maybe some things to roll back on. Additionally i am in favor of Rumbloods proposal and lately =http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/anti-range-shield-change-attack-animations-to-protect-the-user-buff-bump/?topicseenKafein made a suggestion which also is worth discussing more. I will keep on looking for alternative changes to shields, which wont only include stat changes to gear or char.

Besides that, stab nerfs are still needed, if not in the way currently made available. Kick range/angle nerf is overdue, even making blocking for all more challanging maybe a concept to get more interesting fights again, but all that is still not the discussion in this topic as it is not with 2h buffs

[Johammeth]

Another way of affecting shield's effectiveness on the field: Buff its nemesis.

It seems as if we want to make shields a little stronger vs. ranged without making them insanely powerful in melee.

Would the global buff to shields paired with a slight bump to shield-breaking weapons (change the modifier just enough to "keep up") be a good solution?

Yes shields are stronger overall, but a shield-breaking buff would neutralize the advantage in melee, while allowing shields to keep their higher stats to defend against ranged.

It effectively turns the shield buff into a shields-vs-ranged buff, while also encouraging a diversity of weapons (sacrificing stab to use an axe seems a lot more attractive now).


Just another option to keep in mind.


(Full disclosure, I just loomed a long war axe  )

[Phew]

Another way of affecting shield's effectiveness on the field: Buff its nemesis.

It seems as if we want to make shields a little stronger vs. ranged without making them insanely powerful in melee.

Would the global buff to shields paired with a slight bump to shield-breaking weapons (change the modifier just enough to "keep up") be a good solution?

Yes shields are stronger overall, but a shield-breaking buff would neutralize the advantage in melee, while allowing shields to keep their higher stats to defend against ranged.

It effectively turns the shield buff into a shields-vs-ranged buff, while also encouraging a diversity of weapons (sacrificing stab to use an axe seems a lot more attractive now).


Just another option to keep in mind.

Axes break shields very quickly already (3-4 swings usually), so I'm not sure you could really buff it much. And I don't think most shielders are too upset about how fast shields die to axes, because axes have their shortcomings and we can always avoid them anyway.

As a shielder for the past 200 million XP or so, my nemesis isn't axemen (Jona excepted), it's anyone that repeatedly mashes their kick button. If I'm close enough to hit them with a sword swing, I'm close enough to get kicked, and the arc on that thing is like 180 degrees now.