Why was the PT/PD wpf penalty created?

[Lt_Anders]

Before 13*PT it substracted from your wpf. Now 11*PT.

Which means that you actually have little to no wpf damage bonus right?

The part of damage thats wpf related. IE (WPF*0.01*0.15+0.85) So that means that melee gets pure damage bonus with no malus and ranged suffers damage penalty(as anything below 100 wpf is actually lost damage, same with melee)

If you have 5 PT(or 5 PD) that would mean ~60 wpf gone(subtracted from what paul says) and if you had 150 wpf, you'd have truly, 90 wpf. This would mean you lose 5% damage from "lack" of wpf?

Am I right, or is this only for Melee and ranged don't get the bonus, cause I thought it was all classes?

[Bulzur]

All classes get damage bonus from wpf.

Ranged have this PT/PD wpf malus, to actually lower their accuracy and speed, if they decide to go for high PD.
Everything is balanced around it. Weapon has more base damage to make up for this 5% dmg loss. Also, range profit a lot from speed bonus, so it kind of compensates.

Honestly, it seems decent atm, i wouldn't even mind an higher malus for higher PT/PD.

11*PT for every PT under 6
12*PT for every PT 6 to above, or such.

To really make a difference. At this moment, just aim for 6-7 PD/PT, and then level up and Max WM to make up for it.

[Lt_Anders]

All classes get damage bonus from wpf.

Ranged have this PT/PD wpf malus, to actually lower their accuracy and speed, if they decide to go for high PD.
Everything is balanced around it. Weapon has more base damage to make up for this 5% dmg loss. Also, range profit a lot from speed bonus, so it kind of compensates.

Honestly, it seems decent atm, i wouldn't even mind an higher malus for higher PT/PD.

11*PT for every PT under 6
12*PT for every PT 6 to above, or such.

To really make a difference. At this moment, just aim for 6-7 PD/PT, and then level up and Max WM to make up for it.

So it is true, then that Ranged suffer from less damage overall than melee...
Hm well I'll have to change my builds a bit more. I thought that the WPF malus was just for picking things up, not for actual damage.

[Tydeus]

So it is true, then that Ranged suffer from less damage overall than melee...

Depends what you mean. There are several melee weapon (just about all 1h cut swords) that when only counting a single hit, put your damage below that of your average archer(MW Horn Bow with MW Bodkins) with the same amount of PD as you have PS. Were it not for proximity bonus, ranged would consistently be capable of topping scoreboards right along side melee.

[Jarold]

Really I think it's so they're not super accurate fuckers. I had a STF longbowman with 8 wm and he had 184 wpf I think and he was pinpoint accurate for almost a full second. Now imagine that without a wpf penalty.

[Lt_Anders]

Depends what you mean. There are several melee weapon (just about all 1h cut swords) that when only counting a single hit, put your damage below that of your average archer(MW Horn Bow with MW Bodkins) with the same amount of PD as you have PS. Were it not for proximity bonus, ranged would consistently be capable of topping scoreboards right along side melee.

Are we assuming raw damage, with no speed bonus adn 5 PS?(mw Horn bow level?)

I mean, it's easy to find the point that any 1 class will have less damage than any other. I just find it odd, but I don't normally play a PD/PT dedicated class(this is really the beginning of my times as a PT hybrid) so this was new for me. I also can't remember the reason why, some 2 years ago we put this in(was it 2 years ago?)

[Swaggart]

So it is true, then that Ranged suffer from less damage overall than melee...

Probably because they do their damage from a distance.. you know, range. Less risk less reward.

[Lt_Anders]

Probably because they do their damage from a distance.. you know, range. Less risk less reward.

but their raw damage was lower than melee before. Now not so much since they changed the Loomed/unloomed damage, but the Max damage is 41 c and the minimum is 27c versus the roughly 30c base melee damage(average, with 1h being on the low end and poles on the upper). So i can see it NOW, but when it was implemented...the damage was lower and even then it was nerfed.(of course no on likes Archers/ranged so )

(click to show/hide)

I wish we could/would add something similar for melee to discource stacking either heavy str or heavy agi(by making the optimal range 15/21 to 21/15 and anything on the extreme past that should somehow suffer(of course that would really only hurt >30 and not really 30+)

Also they have pierce, and other things, but I'm going off cut damage atm.

[Swaggart]

I still don't understand why this is a hard concept for you to grasp. Ranged classes can deal damage from a far, a much safer place to do damage rather than face to face, hence, they do less damage to compensate. Arbalests are a bit of a wrench in this theory but I guess they're balanced by being so slow to reload.

[San]

but their raw damage was lower than melee before. Now not so much since they changed the Loomed/unloomed damage, but the Max damage is 41 c and the minimum is 27c versus the roughly 30c base melee damage(average, with 1h being on the low end and poles on the upper). So i can see it NOW, but when it was implemented...the damage was lower and even then it was nerfed.(of course no on likes Archers/ranged so )

I wish we could/would add something similar for melee to discource stacking either heavy str or heavy agi(by making the optimal range 15/21 to 21/15 and anything on the extreme past that should somehow suffer(of course that would really only hurt >30 and not really 30+)

Also they have pierce, and other things, but I'm going off cut damage atm.

PT gives a 10% damage bonus compared to PS' 8%. Also, from what I know, throwing weapons get an extra penetration factor against armor. Depending on the damage dropoffs that may occur as a projectile (and from the wpf penalty), it should do better damage. I'm not sure if wpf was left untouched before the requirements were added since I was only a thrower for around a week before that change came into effect, but current weapon stats are surely balanced in consideration to that penalty.

Extreme agi builds have equipment restrictions, low maximum hp, very poor power bonuses, and diminishing "absolute" returns on wpf increases (the relative speed increase is better than linear, though). Extreme strength builds are incredibly slow in any armor and are slow with their weapons. Most builds that have at least 15 in the minor stat are still among the best in the game right now.

[Tydeus]

PT gives a 10% damage bonus compared to PS' 8%. Also, from what I know, throwing weapons get an extra penetration factor against armor. Depending on the damage dropoffs that may occur as a projectile (and from the wpf penalty), it should do better damage. I'm not sure if wpf was left untouched before the requirements were added since I was only a thrower for around a week before that change came into effect, but current weapon stats are surely balanced in consideration to that penalty.

Extreme agi builds have equipment restrictions, low maximum hp, very poor power bonuses, and diminishing "absolute" returns on wpf increases (the relative speed increase is better than linear, though). Extreme strength builds are incredibly slow in any armor and are slow with their weapons. Most builds that have at least 15 in the minor stat are still among the best in the game right now.

This. There are a lot of game mechanics you're not factoring in Anders. PD is 14% btw, since San left that out. Again, as san stated, every single ranged weapon in the game has extra armor penetration, saw raw damage isn't the greatest indicator of effective damage, particularly if you're comparing a cut melee weapon to a pierce damage, extra penetration ranged weapon.

[Templar_Steevee]

I just don't know why some ppl are searching things like this. IMO ranged (i'm speaking about foot archers) are close to balance. The only reason why ppl are whining about ranged are amount of them.

Besides, there should be some skill you need to use X-bows, to balance it a bit

[Grumbs]

Still many ways to discourage people taking xbows as a sidearm, like increased weight, PT style WPF limit, Armour having more off an effect on WPF etc. That will cut down on a lot of the ranged

Some of the irritating nature of ranged can be reduced by looking at headshot damage. Too many random headshots

Archers I don't find as bad as the others because they have dedicated archer builds, so I won't complain about them so much. Pretty sure I got my huscarl round shield penetrated by a bow shot though recently which was BS and the damage is still very good. If I dedicate a similar amount of SP into shields as archers do for PD I expect it to be pretty awesome against ranged

Paul suggested making low damage ranged shots not penetrate heavy armour, that would give people a good option and encourage ranged to priorities targets that they should shoot anyway like horses and other ranged

[Huscarlton_Banks]

It's probably because PD/PT have 14%/10% per point instead of PS's 8%.

It is worth noting that while extra penetration does reduce armor reduction, it increases soak.

Code: [Select]

extra_penetration_factor_soak = 1.2
extra_penetration_factor_reduction = 0.6

[Templar_Steevee]

I got my huscarl round shield penetrated by a bow shot though recently which was BS and the damage is still very good. If I dedicate a similar amount of SP into shields as archers do for PD I expect it to be pretty awesome against ranged

I'm using Longbow and Bodkins  and i NEVER penetrate a shield with a shot. I think only x-bows have option to penetrate shield and hit enemy.

About shield skill i think its force field is a bit too big, but you should remember that you have to face your shield in a direction wich arrows and other missiles are coming from, shield is not protecting your sides and back (still force field sometimes in a magic way is catching arrows from sides). It should be possible IMO to shoot shielders legs, but most of times (like 95%) force field is catching arrows and they are sticking from center of shield.