Horse Archer vs Horse Crossbowman

[IBorbarad]

Hello there, now I do know there are threads about this topic out there, but I don't know if they are outdated or not, so I thought I make my own, very personal.

I also have to make three assumptions:
- I will not get loomed equipment. I started a week ago, and just this one generation takes me way too long. I will sell this loom point and share the money with a friend with whom I started playing cRPG.
- I consider lvl30. This has no deeper purpose, but I think most people do so.
- I am terrible at longrange shots, so I will be relatively near the battle

I further consider a 7/30 crossbow build and a 18/24 archery build, because less strength makes no point without loomed equipment (I suppose).

I am aware of the casual up and downs between the types, I am mostly interested in the following. In this build the horse archer
- does 48 damage per shot (or 47? don't know how damage is rounded) [WPF excluded]
- has max 130 WPF
- has horseriding 4
- has horsearchery 4
- Bow + Arrows has a worth of 18774, generating high upkeep

On the other hand, the Horse Crossbowman
- does 53 damage per shot [WPF excluded]
- has max 189 WPF
- has horseriding 5
- has horsearchery 10
- Crossbow + Bolt has a worth of 9123, generating half the upkeep from the bow.

Upkeep is especially important to me.

My main problem is that I can not tell how much WPF affects the aim, damage, and reload time, same with horseriding. I want to be near, so a high horseriding helps, but on the other hand this means accuracy might or might not be a lesser problem.  What would you advise?

[jtobiasm]

18/24 would be horrible as an HA at level 30.
Stick with 15/24 or 18/21. Also imo after 3 gens as a HA I recommend 7 riding as a beginner.

15/24 (I'd recommend this for a beginner)

(click to show/hide)

Strength: 15
Agility: 24

Skills to attributes: 8

Riding: 7
Horse Archery: 4
Power Draw: 5
Weapon Master: 7
Archery: 163

18/21

(click to show/hide)

Strength:        18
Agility:         21

Skill to attr:    8

Riding:           7
Horse Archery:    3
Power Draw:       6
Weapon Master:    7
Archery:        163

Also, with a +3 horn bow and barbed arrows with a rouncey ( I had 7 riding) I made money and still could get away from other horses. When you have X4, X5  you can use a better horse.

[IBorbarad]

Well thanks for the answer, but it does not really answer my question. This horse archer has even lower damage, and I see even less point in using a bow instead of a crossbow on a horse..

[BattalGazi]

Hello,
Let me try to help you a bit on this. Personally I am having a great fun playing HA although it is nerfed mutliple times and generally this gives a bad feeling for older HA players. However you are new so you'll start with this new condition. Anyhow, I guess HX is also enjoyable as annoying as a HA.

There are many points you have to consider before selecting either of these classes.

WPF

I will try to explain this WPF first. Effective wpf is different than the wpf you build on your character. The formula is as follows:

Effective armor weight = 2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 4*hand armor weight - 10
Armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)

So you can see that your armor weight reduces down your effective wpf. You have to select light gears to avoid losing wpf points due to weight. On top of that your power throw, power draw and horse archery skills are also effecting the final wpf. So we include these two elements into the upper formula as:

final effective wpf = (base proficiency - 13*pt - 14*pd - 10*ha) * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)

So finally what you have as your effective wpf is very different from that max base wpf you can create. So you should revisit your wpf calculations according to these formula.

Your final effective wpf defines two things. First: the speed of drawing your bow / setting your crossbow. Lower the wpf, slower you get ready for the next shot. Second: the chances of having your main weapon repaired. If you have low wpf in a weapon, you will have to repair it more often basically. However there is a trick: this only effects the bow in HA. You will still get a lot of repairs for your arrows, as if your archery wpf relates you only to your bow but not arrows. So, expect a really high amount of repairs. I'm not quite sure if this is the case for crossbow-bolt pair. I think it is, but I'm not sure.

Upkeep
Following the previous, you will see that you will be getting a lot of repairs due to illogical, lacking relation between your wpf and ammunition. Also your horse is a beast, expect to receive a good amount of repair from that one too. If you ever think of getting a side arm like a light sword, your sword will be getting repaired a lot of times, as you have no wpf in that weapon. My honest thought is, devs of the game strike HA and HX players by increasing their upkeep so that they quit playing these classes and leave everybody in peace Anyhow ...

Damage
All bolts inflict pierce damage. Only bodkin arrows do pierce damage, the rest of arrows do cut damage. Pierce damage is very effective against heavy armor but is not against light or low-medium armor. Cut damage is the opposite of this, you will be wasting arrows if you want to kill a tincan basically. (Unless you can hit it on its head 2-3 times) If you want to be a HA, and kill heavy guys, you need to get bodkin arrows but they cost more upkeep than other arrows. Also remember that, you will have at least 2 stacks of arrows. So double up the cost in worst case. So if you think too much about upkeep, you need to get other types of arrows. This will make you a light infantry/medium infantry/archer/light cavalry killer. It's a matter of choice. If you choose to be a HX, your best targets will be heavy guys of course but this does not mean that you cannot kill other classes. Everything depends on who you want to hunt.

HA vs HX
I personally as a HA, hate dealing with HX players. I believe they have the same feeling towards HA. Because these two classes are a good match against each other. There are some advantages of each class. Of course everything depends on your build but, generally HA can draw his bow faster than a HX setting his crossbow. In a duel, this gives HA a better chance of shooting at least 1 more arrow to his HX enemy while he is loading. On the other hand HX deals a greater damage to HA. Well if you are good enough to hit them in the head, then you only need one shot actually

As a final remark let me give you my build if that can help you with anything.

(click to show/hide)

Level 34
Strength:18
Agility:24
One Handed:21
Archery:174
Weapon Master:8
Riding:8
Horse Archery:4
Power Strike:3
Power Draw:6

I hope this helps to answer some of your questions.

[IBorbarad]

I am confused, Horse Archery reduces the skill of a weapon? How is that by any chance useful or realistic? I fail to see the  point here.. Does that also mean I have less prof. with a weapon such as a sword when I got Power Throw skilled?

[BattalGazi]

I am confused, Horse Archery reduces the skill of a weapon? How is that by any chance useful or realistic? I fail to see the  point here..

Well, looks like devs have a sense of humor or lack of sympathy for realism ...

[defodijabox]

I am confused, Horse Archery reduces the skill of a weapon? How is that by any chance useful or realistic? I fail to see the  point here..

Horse Archery skill makes your WPF go down, but also increases accuracy on horseback, making it incredibly useful/necessary.

Does that also mean I have less prof. with a weapon such as a sword when I got Power Throw skilled?

No, it only makes Archery WPF go down with PD or HA skills, not any other WPFs

[WITCHCRAFT]

I have played 3 gens of horse archer and spent a fair amount of time as skip the fun horse crossbow. Here's my critiques and recommendations:

- I will not get loomed equipment.

In my experience, unloomed crossbows are better than unloomed bows. Bows benefit greatly from being heirloomed.

- I am terrible at longrange shots, so I will be relatively near the battle

As ranged cavalry, you want to be mid to close range. You can only make long shots while standing still, and you will be up against enemy longbows and arbalests. It is something that ranged cav doesn't really do and shouldn't have to worry about.

I further consider a 7/30 crossbow build and a 18/24 archery build, because less strength makes no point without loomed equipment (I suppose).

7/30 is standard horse xbow build. I'd recommend 15/24 horse archer with a horn bow. The yumi is extremely difficult to wield effectively, even more so if it is not loomed to +3.

upkeep and damage maths

Horse archers generally take something other than bodkins. This means that HX deal pierce and HA deal cut. HA do best when targeting lower armor targets. You will want more shots as HA than 2 stacks of bodkins (again, especially unloomed) will offer. No matter how good your aim is, you will miss plenty. HA loadout will be cheaper than horse xbow if you don't use bodkins.

Some other general tips that don't directly answer your questions:
-Steppe horse with its high maneuver is a great low-upkeep choice of mount. You can strafe and circle to line up the shot you want. On a rouncey or destrier or course you are forced into charging straight to line up your shot.
-if you go horse crossbow, try to aim up a shot and charge/fire. the run away and reload. repeat
-if you go horse archer, pick a good target (you will learn your prey if you play the class for a whilte). circle and fire relentlessly.
-no matter what, get at least 4 Horse archery and 8 riding skill. You need it to dodge enemy cav. lower horse archery will make your shots fly all willy-nilly and never go where you aim.

[BattalGazi]

Well of course HA skill reduces your wpf on one hand ( totally insane ) but on the other side it increases your accuracy dramatically. There is a great difference between 3 HA and 4 HA. With the latest changes in the arrow speed and the related glitches causing ghost arrow effect ( meaning that the system does not calculate a hit although you hit an object ) having a 3 HA will annoy you incredibly. So I suggest you to have a 4 HA to have a efficient accuracy.

[Ubereem]

whatever you choose just ride around, shoot and chase enemy cavalry until you get the hang of it

[agweber]

I think Hot Elf has the best response to this thread, but to finish up his pros and cons I would highly suggest going HX for the time being since you do not have gear. The 7/30 build gives you plenty of WPF which you can spare some of to get a 1h sidearm and not have to worry about repairing it every round.

[oohillac]

Overall, I've done several generations of HA and have tooled around with HX a bit:

HX:

+ Higher damage
+ Potentially higher riding skill
+ Greater accuracy
+ Wider shooting angles
+ Can wear heavier armour (higher WPF/no draw timer)
+ Potential for melee hybridization
- Crossbows can be expensive

HA:

+ Fast shooting speed
+ Lots of ammo
+ Less expensive with cheap arrows
- Low damage without heirlooms/bodkins (can't damage heavy armour without headshots)

Overall I preferred HA, but as a HA you will get obliterated by the HX. Your call.