Remove 2h stab from game

[Tyr_]

Like last time I'll probably get a lot of biased minuses from class lobbyists for reporting this for some reason, but I never do effective facehug distance stabs against medium+ armored enemies with my DGS anymore due to glancing (it may be that some experience it with the shorter bastard or longsword that has way more room to maneuver) but if you disagree then please demonstrate it in a video or in images, to backup your statements, because I have used great swords for many years and I've always been aware of the problems connected with these weapons (major opponent of lolstabbing and the then current great swords in my TW post history) besides the obvious high tier weapon class of 2handed swords, but though still far from perfect (just like polearm stabs which also has its problems), I've only seen these problems decrease as of the many latest changes in mechanics.

I cba making a vid of it, but if you want i can show you how to make this stabs very easily, you are going to make full-dmg hits everytime with a stab, a lordly armet as helmet would make it more diffucult, but still not rly hard.

2h itself isnt OP, the only problem is that the animations arent working properly, my playstile should not work bcause all i do is making this unrealistic stabs, but this is what makes it so strong atm.
But dont focus on 2h: pikes and spears can do the same, the only difference is that i use 3 directions to feint before i stab while pikers only have their stab.

The stab on all weapons - even one handers - needs to be fixed, since you can do face to face stabs with every sword/spear, and where i hit with the hilt of my sword and a pike hits with its shaft, it still does full pierce dmg.

[Angantyr]

Just tested it on the duel server with Saxon (5IF, Rus helmet, 56 body armor), I aimed for the head and upper body and dealt on average 20% hp dam on each hit with 7PS and MW DGS if I 'swung' the stab at facehug range, otherwise it would glance every time. This was done stationary so no speed bonus.

edit: reading your post again, perhaps I misunderstood you Tyr, not saying that you can't swing stabs in at close range only that a normal straight stab attack in close quarters would fail after the latest changes to glancing, thought that was what people argued.

[Tyr_]

Yeah, straight stabs arent usable on close range, theyll glance even on guys without headarmor, but you can make stabs face to face which will hit with full damage, it just needs a bit practice

[Artyem]

My largest problems with two handers (after playing 2h every gen up until now) is that the stab can basically 1 hit anybody point blank, and you can take huge ass great swords on horseback and use them on foot without any issue.  Personally, I think that making most greatswords 3 slotted would help the situation, that way people can just use the equally OP Bastard Sword from horseback or with a crossbow instead of that gigantic +3 DGS.

Aside from that, there's not much to be done unless they go through the process of changing the animations for 2h weapons entirely, as they're pretty much the epitome of broken.  Not only does your left to right swing empower you with the ability to swing twice instantly, but it also makes you duck down and become nearly untouchable by ranged.

[BlueKnight]

(click to show/hide)

Pretty sure all instances of 'ghost reach' was ironed out years ago, what you're referring to may just be latency in hit detection or for whatever reason some visual imprecision between models and hit boxes.

@OP,
Great swords were specialized stabbers designed to pierce heavily armored opponents. This was their primary battlefield function, a sort of awlpike-sword hybrid (with the cutting edge primarily to cut spears and pikes). If the stabbing animation was changed at least it shouldn't be changed to half-swording only which wouldn't adequately represent the weapon type.
Having this long-reaching thrust is also not unrealistic for the weapon class (like abovementioned awlpike with base instead of center grip), the main problem I ever saw with it was the speed, how the animations could be abused, either by dragging stabs, lolfeints (often through the ground) and point blank instastabbing - which to some degree have actually been improved a lot during the course of the last six months or so (a time where few if any of the people who complain about the 'OP lolswords' as far as I can see have played with any themselves, usually they used them back when they were truly overpowered), thanks to the cRPG developers.

Like last time I'll probably get a lot of biased minuses from class lobbyists for reporting this for some reason, but I never do effective facehug distance stabs against medium+ armored enemies with my DGS anymore due to glancing (it may be that some experience it with the shorter bastard or longsword that has way more room to maneuver) but if you disagree then please demonstrate it in a video or in images, to backup your statements, because I have used great swords for many years and I've always been aware of the problems connected with these weapons (major opponent of lolstabbing and the then current great swords in my TW post history) besides the obvious high tier weapon class of 2handed swords, but though still far from perfect (just like polearm stabs which also has its problems), I've only seen these problems decrease as of the many latest changes in mechanics.

Post worth reading. +1

[Nordwolf]

constant switching of attack directions

It's called feinting.
One of the core mechanics of melee fight.

[Spa_geh_tea]

None of the images show armored fights. I lol at your attempts to suggest that the current lolstab animation was used effectivly beyond gentleman duels and peasant rape.

Do agree all thrust animations are busted, some busted in favour of wielder, and others against.

[Teeth]

Pretty sure all instances of 'ghost reach' was ironed out years ago, what you're referring to may just be latency in hit detection or for whatever reason some visual imprecision between models and hit boxes.

Katana, Miaodao, Barmace and Highland Claymore just to name a few.

Like last time I'll probably get a lot of biased minuses from class lobbyists for reporting this for some reason, but I never do effective facehug distance stabs against medium+ armored enemies with my DGS anymore due to glancing (it may be that some experience it with the shorter bastard or longsword that has way more room to maneuver) but if you disagree then please demonstrate it in a video or in images

There is also a lot of people that are convinced you can't stab people at facehug range with a longspear from their own experience, yet you can. I can do it with a 2h as well, it is very similar.

[Angantyr]

Katana, Miaodao, Barmace and Highland Claymore just to name a few.

I agree it often seems like it but I base my assumption on Paul's reply when I once inquired about it, so this is according to him.

There is also a lot of people that are convinced you can't stab people at facehug range with a longspear from their own experience, yet you can. I can do it with a 2h as well, it is very similar.

Without swing/lolstabbing? I've seen longspears do a regular straight stab at very close range but never an effective danish or german facehug stab due to the animation (unless against lowly-armored enemies). But haven't really tested it much after going from 6 to 7 PS, not sure how much of a difference it would do anyway.

[Teeth]

Without swing/lolstabbing? I've seen longspears do a regular straight stab at very close range but never an effective danish or german facehug stab due to the animation (unless against lowly-armored enemies). But haven't really tested it much after going from 6 to 7 PS, not sure how much of a difference it would do anyway.

No of course not without spinning, but why does that matter? Fact is you can do it and fact is that any half decent twohander can do it. Which is a huge advantage of the 2h stab, because besides being very long, it is also able to stab very fast at minimum range.

I agree it often seems like it but I base my assumption on Paul's reply when I once inquired about it, so this is according to him.

Paul gets a stiffy from numbers and code, and still firmly believes that this game is not borked in many ways, because it does not say so in the code. We all know there are a number of messed up things in the game right now without any proper explanation. This game simply is quirky.

[owens]

So for me the biggest problem with 2H stab is the unusually long effective damage time of the attack.


What I mean is that the stab is still able to deal damage when being withdrawn, stationary or barely moving. It is very unusual for me to be damaged at all by a weapon that isn't moving. The problem being of course pierce damage from a often pretty heavy weapon.

The simplest solution is to simply replace pierce with cut for most swords. A more difficult more optimum solution could be cutting short the damage dealing time during the animation. making the last part of the animation inert.

[Teeth]

So for me the biggest problem with 2H stab is the unusually long effective damage time of the attack.


What I mean is that the stab is still able to deal damage when being withdrawn, stationary or barely moving. It is very unusual for me to be damaged at all by a weapon that isn't moving. The problem being of course pierce damage from a often pretty heavy weapon.

The simplest solution is to simply replace pierce with cut for most swords.

This is not a solution to the problem you mentioned. Pierce and weight of the weapon don't really have anything to do with that. Pierce ofcourse affecting whether it glances or not, but it shouldn't even glance when it is already retracting. Weight affects nothing but movement speed and stun, it has nothing to do with damage or glancing.

A more difficult more optimum solution could be cutting short the damage dealing time during the animation. making the last part of the animation inert.

This just needs to happen.

[Angantyr]

No of course not without spinning, but why does that matter? Fact is you can do it and fact is that any half decent twohander can do it. Which is a huge advantage of the 2h stab, because besides being very long, it is also able to stab very fast at minimum range.

Only because that is what I was referring to in the quotation you used and not lolstabbing. Perhaps you missed what me and Tyr wrote to each other earlier on this page since you objected it was possible to swing it in when I had just written the very same thing.

[Ubereem]

all i know is a 120 reach sword should not be able to outreach a 150 reach polearm

[pepejul]

except if 2H is poking while pole is swinging... it's physics =)