Author Topic: Let's talk about cavalry balance  (Read 2372 times)

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Offline Skyline

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2012, 10:16:56 pm »
0
Let me help you break it down......

Its the same ol discussion cause the old players in the community are use to something and they dont want it changed.(meaning the older community members speak up on topics but ramble off the same old shit every time instead of actually considering other options because of comfort of knowing they wont have to learn something new or change the way they already play)

 In some cases even abuse the game mechanic being discussed.(self explanatory)

People want it realistic, yet want it to be "their realistic" not actual reality.(meaning people have unrealistic grips on what a human could or couldn't do,thus base their opinions on how they "think" a trained warrior could or could not perform, distorting how they take in information when it is brought up as "a realism issue")

 or they abuse said problem and dont want it changed because of that. ( so broken mechanics should not be fixed because you dont want a weapon to change? Like pikes poking around corners etc, how is that balanced?)

Anything else you need help comprehending let me know....
Common sense is not so common.

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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 10:30:50 pm »
-1
Let me help you break it down......

Many thanks.

Quote
Its the same ol discussion cause the old players in the community are use to something and they dont want it changed.(meaning the older community members speak up on topics but ramble off the same old shit every time instead of actually considering other options because of comfort of knowing they wont have to learn something new or change the way they already play)

So, new players don't come into the game, and being ignorant about past changes, and probably have barely played the class/style, think that it should be changed, because they PERCEIVE that something is OP, because they remember a lot of annoying deaths by that class, because the human memory system works best when there's an emotional element to the thing being remembered.

Got it. Clear as day, and old members are the ones talking shit in the forum. In fact, the old farts should all just shut up and let the newcomers who know all about everything do all the talking.

Quote
In some cases even abuse the game mechanic being discussed.(self explanatory)

People want it realistic, yet want it to be "their realistic" not actual reality.(meaning people have unrealistic grips on what a human could or couldn't do,thus base their opinions on how they "think" a trained warrior could or could not perform, distorting how they take in information when it is brought up as "a realism issue")

Realism discussion belongs in here for a reason. Please: http://forum.meleegaming.com/realism-discussion/

Quote
or they abuse said problem and dont want it changed because of that. ( so broken mechanics should not be fixed because you dont want a weapon to change? Like pikes poking around corners etc, how is that balanced?)

It can be balanced as Pikes having a gigantic thrust stun and weak stab.

If it that corner shit would be removed, and Pikes consequently made a little better to compensate for the loss, I'd be very happy.

Quote
Anything else you need help comprehending let me know....

Yes, I have a lot of problems with English. Thanks again for your generous offer.

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 10:34:44 pm »
+3
True, and that's a shame.  What do you think, as a cavalry player, would be the best way to keep people from just adding 5 riding to whatever build they're running to give themselves an advantage?  Let's use an 18/18 two handed/lancer as an example.

By making at least the heavy lance, probably lance/light lance also, be 3 slot weapons.  Nothing else.

Discourage people from being cookie cutter 1hander/shield/lancer or 2 slot weapon + heavy lance right at spawn.  Still allow these players to scavenge gear if they manage to survive being dehorsed to get back to fighting shape without having some retarded half athletics build.

Don't punish 2handed cav, 1 handed cav, and bow/throwing cav when its just lancers that are OP.

Horse stats and mechanics are fine now.  Don't need to be changed.  Just tweak the most overused cav weapons so they aren't so fucking strong.  Look at couching and lance damage.  However if it was a 3 slot weapon that might be good enough of a trade.

edit:  shield bubble is the worst, remove it plz
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:38:59 pm by Smoothrich »
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Offline Skyline

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 10:40:14 pm »
-3
Many thanks.

So, new players don't come into the game, and being ignorant about past changes, and probably have barely played the class/style, think that it should be changed, because they PERCEIVE that something is OP, because they remember a lot of annoying deaths by that class, because the human memory system works best when there's an emotional element to the thing being remembered.

Got it. Clear as day, and old members are the ones talking shit in the forum. In fact, the old farts should all just shut up and let the newcomers who know all about everything do all the talking.

Realism discussion belongs in here for a reason. Please: http://forum.meleegaming.com/realism-discussion/

It can be balanced as Pikes having a gigantic thrust stun and weak stab.

If it that corner shit would be removed, and Pikes consequently made a little better to compensate for the loss, I'd be very happy.

Yes, I have a lot of problems with English. Thanks again for your generous offer.

Done having a discussion with someone who is just an asshat.
Common sense is not so common.

"Anyways, there is no TK in this screenshot.  Only one guy killing another"  - Smoothrich

Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 10:50:01 pm »
0
By making at least the heavy lance, probably lance/light lance also, be 3 slot weapons.  Nothing else.

Discourage people from being cookie cutter 1hander/shield/lancer or 2 slot weapon + heavy lance right at spawn.  Still allow these players to scavenge gear if they manage to survive being dehorsed to get back to fighting shape without having some retarded half athletics build.

Don't punish 2handed cav, 1 handed cav, and bow/throwing cav when its just lancers that are OP.

Horse stats and mechanics are fine now.  Don't need to be changed.  Just tweak the most overused cav weapons so they aren't so fucking strong.  Look at couching and lance damage.  However if it was a 3 slot weapon that might be good enough of a trade.

edit:  shield bubble is the worst, remove it plz

Heavy lance + one hand sword + steel buckler = gg

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 11:05:19 pm »
0
Heavy lance + one hand sword + steel buckler = gg

the new meta
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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 11:12:53 pm »
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Done having a discussion with someone who is just an asshat.

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Offline Skyline

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 11:28:24 pm »
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Def not.... but good try. I just don't play well with stupidity. Good day.
Common sense is not so common.

"Anyways, there is no TK in this screenshot.  Only one guy killing another"  - Smoothrich

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2012, 05:39:09 pm »
+1
If someone adds 5 riding to their build, that's 5 less WM, 5 less IF, 5 less shield they could have.  That's 2 more attributes, plus a skill.

You act like 5 riding is something anyone can just throw into their build.

Most people are min/maxers.  But you may be shocked to realize that although most cavalry don't go pure cavalry builds (because higher riding skill than the horse requires is negligible compared to native, or 1.5 years ago in c-rpg).  But you could make an 18/24 pure lancer cav build at level 30.  With 6 PS, 8 Riding, and 3 athletics.  You could also go 21/21 with 7 PS, 7 Riding and 3 athletics.  Or you could go more balanced and go 18/18 at level 30 (1 IF, 6 PS, 4 Shield, 6 Riding, 6 Athletics, and 6 WM) and have 118 1h, and 119 polearms. 

Even within cavalry you can choose to trade off certain skills to maximize others, but most people just go pure hybrid because having more riding skill doesn't really help much for extra speed and maneuverability on the horses.  Before they nerfed riding skill on horses, you had people who were going 9 and 10 riding because they wanted to be pure cavalry builds.  Now there's no point in doing that because you wont' be riding much faster than 6 riding on a courser compared to 9 riding.

Every nerf has unintended consequences, and that is just one of the 100's that have happened because of a nerf.  You nerf something, and people will adapt their character and play styles.

I say (for the most part) leave the game alone and don't nerf shit. 
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Offline Canary

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2012, 02:31:17 pm »
+3
The recent ragdoll-soak feature has given an unprecedented benefit to all cavalry players. You can attack through a horse to hit the rider or another player on the other side when the horse is alive, but once the horse dies, you can no longer hit the rider through the horse. It's a huge discrepancy that leads to much more survivability for players riding horses than they frankly needed to have; upon being dehorsed they'll not always pay for that mistake any further by allowing the person who killed the horse to land any hits upon them. That's a large advantage, particularly for hybrid cav builds that really don't suffer once on foot.

Offline San

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2012, 04:33:20 pm »
+2
Speed-based damage when crashing into walls.

Stun rider on horse rear.

Speedbased damage when dehorsed up to 30% (or armor based) and/or remove horse dead body soak.

Slightly increased spear angle radius.

There are others, but these are the most important to me. Punish cav more when they screw up.

Offline PhigNewtenz

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2012, 05:57:49 pm »
0
Lots of good suggestions here, nice thread.

I definitely support removing the bubble, removing couching from non couch-only lances, and generally punishing bad mistakes.

I like speed-based damage, with a few comments.
  • Have a minimum speed threshold, just as fall damage occurs only above a certain fall speed/height
  • If possible (though I fear it's probably not), have no damage from hitting invisible map boundaries. This shouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, poor map design is rampant and invisible walls already lead to many sudden deaths without warning.

I both like and dislike the one-hit-kill for pikes and long spears.
  • It just makes sense. Going near an aware piker is a foolish mistake and should cost you your horse.
  • Something about a level 7 peasant with a Long Spear one-hit-killing a plated charger at moderate speed seems wrong.

May I propose for consideration:

10) Add a difficulty-based WPF requirement to use a weapon on horseback
From a realism standpoint, using a lance (or sword/mace/axe for that matter), one-handed, from horseback seems difficult. From a specialization standpoint, a requirement of say 12 WPF per weapon difficulty to use a weapon on horseback (132 for a heavy lance) would force would-be lancers to commit to polearms and to actually put points in WM. Right now, there are tons of 'bandwagon' hybrids riding around, lancing, with 1 polearm WPF because the slow animation are not a problem. Many people actually consider the slower animations an advantage because they reduce the need for proper timing. This wouldn't affect dedicated lancers, but it would make it more fair. Who else gets excellent performance from a weapon without committing any WPF points?

This is similar to Xolvern's fourth suggestion in that it would decrease the hit window for lances. Additionally, it addresses bandwagon hybridization. It does not address the lances excessive utility on foot. The fifth point from the OP is most definitely still appropriate.

Edit: Fixed a typo.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 06:12:06 pm by PhigNewtenz »

Offline OssumPawesome

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2012, 02:55:20 pm »
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I agree with all these points except horse health.  I dunno why it takes more than 1 arbalest shot to kill horses above like some puny rouncey.  Horses have plenty of health as it is, and I think with the pike fix they'll be balanced.

Offline Riddaren

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Re: Let's talk about cavalry balance
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2012, 01:53:13 pm »
+1
Removing the option to couch lance will make lancing more boring.
Why is it that people have such problems with lancers? They are quite easy to deal with.

Cav vs cav will just become even more dumbed down if couched lancing gets removed.
I get quite a lot of couched lance kills on enemy armoured horses.

Saying it doesn't take skill to use couch lance is bullshit.
Thrusting a lance is a lot easier. Not for every situation but in general it is.

These screenshots are taken today. If I wouldn't be able to couch lance I would not have had that high score.