Speedy Long Spear/Pike build help? & General piking tips?

[WhiteAndMilky]

Hello, I am new to cRPG. I am currently playing a 21/18 polearm build (at 21/14 right now) and I made a stf alt that is 15/24, wearing very light or almost no armor. I like the speed of the second, but one hit and I can be dead.

Some details:
1. I don't have the best ping, (130-200 sometimes) which makes it very difficult to parry or have close range battles, that's why I took to playing pikeman in the firstplace, to keep people at range. So I generally think a more AGI based pikeman build is better. So I can stay at range and avoid being forced into high ping parry attempts.
2. Pike is difficulty level 13, so that's my STR minimum.
3. Maybe it would be nice to carry a 2H Mace with me, just as a last resort when someone charges me, since it only takes up one spot. But I don't know what to do about wpf with this and polearm.
4. I am new, so any advice about actual playstyle and abilities would help me greatly.

If someone could help me out with a build plan I would really appreciate it.

Thanks and have a good one!

[Sandersson Jankins]

I've played a couple generations as pure pole-arm and here's what I did.
21/21
7ATH
7PS
3WM
130 or so pole wpf

Now, with that build you're faster than all hell, and you have great damage potential. Obviously with zero ironflesh you're going to have a hard time with absorbing tons of damage, but using armour around the range of 37 body and 20 leg, I felt that I was durable enough. With a longspear you are able to 2-shot some lower health characters (usually a dedicated ranged or someone under level 25), and take out dedicated melee enemies with 4-5 stabs. With a pike, the damage is a bit lower. The main problem with this build is if someone decides to focus you with arrows, crossbows, or throwing, you can easily be taken down in a hurry. It is important to master the skills needed to dodge ranged projectiles. It is imperative to turn your character rapidly and in evasive patterns; not simply press A and D randomly while charging away/at him.

Now, with the differences between longspear/pike. A longspear is often very viable when used on its own. If you are with your teammates, and you should be, you will certainly not need a secondary weapon. If you have the tendency to wander off on your own, a secondary weapon will be useful, but not necessary. If you are using the above build, which sacrifices WM for other stats, you cannot afford to put more than about 10-20 wpf in another weapon. 30wpf in a secondary weapon really seems to be too little to make much of a difference. My suggestion is this: if you want a secondary with the 21/21 build, or if you do not want to spend wpf on another category, use a quarter-staff. I fucking love this weapon; it is absolutely devastating. It is quicker than most weapons a dedicated melee character would use. It has decent damage, and since it is blunt damage type, it is still effective against armour-users. It can also cause knockdown, which is at least 1 free hit, 2 if you get lucky, and maybe even 3 free hits if you can land a kick immediately after the enemy arises.

Alright, so here's whats going on with the pike. I feel that in order to use a pike with no secondary, you must ALWAYS stay with AT LEAST 5 teammates. Almost always you will simply want to follow in the pocket of the largest group you can find. If a dedicated melee class decides to engage you, and you do not have these teammates, they will simply defeat you in 1v1 combat if they are competent. As a pike user, your weapon cannot reliably defeat a dedicated melee user in a 1v1. If you get more than 1 enemy against you with no help, you are ABSOLUTELY fucked. Now, I again recommend using the quarterstaff as a secondary. Especially in conjunction with the pike. Even if you are fighting with you team, there are times when you are forced to engage in very close quarters combat. With a quarterstaff, you are a capable fighter in close quarters.


Hope this helped, dude. Keep in mind that my experience lies primarily in the battle servers and strategus battles. Siege isn't my thing. If I see you around in NA1 I can give you pointers. Also; some advice for now. Try to find a clan that you think looks cool and is willing to both take, and TEACH newer members. If you have someone dedicated to making you better at the game, you will get better quicker. I know NH seems to do that, and they're fine people. TkoV is similiar to that. And of course, there is my clan and I'd be happy to teach you things, but we're a bit more relaxed than both of those groups. Of course, if you're EU I don't know which ones of them would be good for you. I don't really go there.

[WhiteAndMilky]

I know I told you already but thanks for the help!

I really enjoy the pike + quarter staff combo, even if it felt a bit like cheating at first. The pike can really screw you over sometimes, and it's nice to be able to drop it and just run around thwacking people and knocking em on the ground until teammates realize what is going on and come help me.

Of course this is just still on my first build. I'm gonna reset on my stf alt when it comes up next, and give your build a try, I think I will really like the speed increase.

Currently wearing
Kettle hat with Aventail
Green Brigandine over aketon
Mail Mittens
Rus Shoes

[Uumdi]

You're on the right track, I'd stick to 15/24, anywhere to 24/15, if you wanted to see how increased hp would help.  If you're going for speedy though, 15/24 and 18/21 are perfect builds.


13/27 is a possibility too.  In theory, I don't think it would do enough damage, but in practice it might be phenominal.  Try it out on the STF character.  4 Power Strike, 9 Athletics, 8 Weaponmaster, leaving you with 170+ wpf in poles. 

I recommend sticking to the quarter staff as an offhand, or using the 2h Mace with only 1 wpf.  You'd be fine splitting it 150 pole / 100 2h if you really wanted to though, with a few extra points to tip the scale either way.

[Zerran]

http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/a-guide-on-using-the-pike/

 

[Felix]

I did a speedy pikeman build in the past, but i discarded it because the lack of toughness which is essential to pikers. Speedy builds are more viable for ninja characters, but your average pikeman won't run like ninja poking ranged and backstabbing people. Primarily he is one of the most important cores or foundations in melee fights, so he gotta be very durable. I am running 21/18 build with 6 ath, 6 IF and 7 PS. No need to stack points into WM, pike is very slow. 150+ wpf won't make any visibly faster, trust me. I am fine with 140.

Basically pike is ALL about timing and distance. Timing and distance. You have length. But you don't have speed. Without ability to judge properly timing and distance, you will be a bad piker. Because pike's so slow, you can't stack speed related bonuses (like wpf and ath) to make it faster, you gotta use timing and distance guys.

Now, pikeman is a great asset to the team. One competent piker can stop the rush of a small crowd pretty much alone (being the only piker). The most important thing in melee battles is an ability to trust your teammates so you can concentrate on dealing blows to enemies. Pay attention. You can't be narrow-minded like your average 2h, jumping on one enemy and slashing him to death (or get slashed to death), you gotta control the battle. Pike's the greatest weapon for controling cause it's so long and it's spearhead is so small, so you can lunge your pokes in very narrow spaces (even with no visible space at all).

Learn to notice. Whenever a shielder opens up for the attack - hit him without hesitation. Whenever a 2h is ready to slash, poke him. Apply pressure. Even if they block your attacks, it applies a great deal of pressure on them.

Now about enemy pikemen and long spearmen. Those guys are tricky. But you can defeat them, if your timing is perfect. I prefer rushing style. I see pikeman, i rush him without hesitation. Obviously most of times, either i hit him ealier, or he has to block my attack. There are lot of ways to deal with your not so fellow pikeman:

- Distance: be aware of your distance. If you do some boxing, just imagine that you need to outbox and land some counters in. Poke then pull back. Make him impatient, he will try to poke you. You keep the distance THEN you strike. Because of time lag after pike's attack, you have like 0.3 second time for free hit. Keep the distance, wait him to strike you, then RUSH. You may even jump. Just keep the distance – you should be fast enough to dodge his pike, but close enough to close in time before he blocks.

- Timing: The one to let off the button first is the one who connects first. It works almost every time. So keep your timing perfect. And if you SEE that he is faster, dont hesitate - just down block.

- Footwork: Pike's very slow and not really maneuverable. It means that you can dodge it's attack by side-stepping. As most of players are righties, they will unconsiously aim for the LEFT side of the screen. Stepside to the left (your left), and you're out of the range. It won’t work with pro-pikers though, those can change the trajectory in split second

- Surroundings: Pikers can be huge pain in ass. So if you do see couple in the crowd, make them your first time priority. If you see some of them carelessly stabbing anyone but you, feel free to remind them of your presence.

- Don’t be afraid to be a pussy: if you get jammed between more than 2 enemies – run. Actually, even if there’s one guy pressing you hugging his shield and swinging his scimitar – run anyway. Pike’s not duel weapon. And you will be more use to your team alive.
And all those things - they do not come separately. You have to combine it all. For example - you are ready to attack him, you are the faster one, but he still hits. Why? Cause he used distance as well - either he closed in faster than you or he dodged you and then landed a stab.

Longspearmen aren’t really dangerous. Pike length beat their dmg and speed almost every time, just keep your distance, backpedal, poke him, block him, poke him again. Don’t let him get close to you, cause longspear can make that vicious zerodistance stab. But nevertheless it’s not a dangerous enemy – you just downblock and he can poke all he wants. In mass fight they are your easy prey because of your length superiority. To make it short, any hoplite or other poking bastards (war spear, awlpike, long awlpike, long spear, ashwood pike) are inferior to you in term of length, which makes you pretty much apex predator. You don’t even need to keep your timing, length beats it all. If you keep your distance.

To conclude this – you gotta choose your style. If you wanna be aggressive type, the one who jumps into fights, attack-jumps, tough and able to absorb some damage, get some points into IF and get heavy armor. I do this one, though it has drawbacks as well. Because of my aggressiveness I tend to get into situations when I get to close to enemies and pike gets useless there.
As an example – Backlash is using (quite effectively) another style. He’s calm and patient, waiting for enemies to open up. He also wiggles his pike a little and always keep it ready, aiming for somewhere left. It shouldn’t fool you though, the moment you open up, he will always land a precise stab in. He rarely jump-attacks (which I do a lot) and is best using distance factor. I tend to close in too fast and rely more on the timing thing. There are some who master footwork. It’s up to you. Oh, and you should learn to block. Really.

[Zerran]

Basically everything Felix said. Haven't actually played with him, but judging by the post we have a similar piking style.

Though, I generally deal with other pikeman differently. I'm not very good at judging my length, so I generally play defensively for the first hit, and then try and chamber block them into a thrust stun. If I can't get them after a couple attempts, I may pull out my sidearm in an attempt to end the fight sooner so I can get back to helping my allies. Even a bad pikeman can occasionally judge his distance better than the best pikeman, but he doesn't have a chance in hell of performing a proper helicopter by luck.

Heavier, durable pikeman is, imo, the way to go. With a build like that, utilizing heavier armor, you won't die nearly as easily if someone manages to get through your allies and thrust stuns you (which, even with the best allies, WILL happen from time to time.), and you'll be able to deal a lot more damage. The big disadvantage of it is, of course, you aren't as mobile, so it can be a little harder to target swap. Though if you use that 300 length properly, you can still target swap with relative ease.

On the other hand, NH_Relit manages to do exceedingly well with a higher agi build.

To the OP:

You mention that you have bad ping, so some of the really nice tactics such as watching for an opponent to open up, as Felix mentioned, won't really work for you. HOWEVER, you can still be very effective. With proper footwork and foresight, you should even be able to perform perfect helicopters.

My advise to you to deal with your ping, is to learn to use footwork to FORCE your opponent into doing what you want him to do. Learn to take control of the fight, don't let him push you around and back you into a corner. Back-peddling will get you nowhere without allies around. If you know what your opponent is going to do before he does, you won't need to worry about ping as much. The way you do this is all through footwork. For example, if you run directly to the right to get past him, you KNOW he's going to try a left swing, and so you can block it without even trying.

As counter intuitive as it may seem, I think you'll be better off using an aggressive footwork style as opposed to a defensive one to counter bad ping.


And to Felix:

Actually if you don't mind, I'd like to just toss this in the Guide as-is, it's quite good. 

[Felix]

Ye, i dont mind)
We never met cause you're from NA and i play EU only)

[Toodles]

I'm just here to vouch for Red Pike - he is THE MAN I WANT wiggling his LONG SHAFT in the vicinity of my REAR END.

If I can chip in, it can be good to pair up with someone you can rely on - someone you know is more than willing to LET you do your job rather than dance incessantly as if he were alone, some people just can't be helped.

Bjorn

[Gurnisson]

Do you play at your optimal server? Getting up to 200 ping seems quite extreme. Where are you from and on what server do you play?

Anyway, I don't think piking is the easisest to do with a high ping. Your only attacking direction hits only in front of your character. It would probably be easier just stacking strength and heavy armour with a war cleaver or a glaive. Anyway, if you still want to go through with it, that's fine. At least you'll have superior length and I guess you'll eventually learn hit detection at that ping.

I would suggest going with a long spear and not convert too many skill points. 21/21 is nice on paper, but 21/18 is probably the best build I ever tried as a pikeman. Max out ironflesh, athletics and power strike and put the rest in weapon master. I'm usually not a fan of backup weapons, but with that ping I wouldn't advice going 1 vs. 1 with a pike/long spear. The mace is a brilliant weapon for 1 slot and can be used without a lot of 2h wpf investment. Sticking with your teammates will be mandatory with your ping, but it's always nice to fall back on a competent melee weapon when you're alone. I'm more of a fan of 1 vs. 1 with the pike myself, but it's not optimal.

As for choosing between pike and long spear. Pike is a lot slower and has a lower base damage. When used right you'll actually outdamage the long spear quite often, and the pikemen eats long spearmen for breakfast with superior length. However, using a pike up close is suicide, you'll get stunned for long periods when someone blocks you or you hit obstacles, and your damage is poor when attacking a backpedaling enemy. While the long spear can perform quite well even when ganked I strongly suggest sticking close to competent teammates if you're gonna use the pike. Learn who to trust, learn how to stay away from. Greatsword users who impresses themselves with their lolthrusting will never get any support from me, they're just wasting me and their own damage potential, and therefore hurting the team. There are some players that know by heart how to fight with a piker, and I guess you'll learn for yourself who that is. The ones who know where you are, use a lot of held swings for you to hit at the same time, leaving the enemy's blocking useless. I know for a fact that Tor (on EU) is perhaps my best buddy to fight alongside. He just knows exactly how to play while being supported by a pikeman. Your worst enemies are throwers, skilled archers and offensive shielders. Having a good thrower focusing you or the likes of bagge or Zerobot (both EU) doing it, you're pretty much fucked. As a pikeman you're dedicating yourself to supporting. 3 slots and an unsheathable weapon. You can't get a good backup polearm, and you can't carry a shield while still carrying the pike. You'll be extremely vulnerable to range at any given time, and should always move around. As for the offensive shielders, my worst nightmare on the enemy team is Merc_Bjorn. The guy's a massive tank, my pike will bounce unless at optimal range, he dishes out extreme damage and, most importantly, he's not afraid to break through your team's line to hurt you. A defensive shielder is not difficult to kill, a offensive one like Bjorn is hell.

In mass melee, I suggest you hold the second line and stab and try to be aware of all possible options. Try to be aware of flankers, cavalry coming from behind and who the top priority targets are. Even if a competent player rarely gets piked, knowing that you're there he can't perform anywhere close to what he usually does. Knowing that one will have a pike in your face the moment one releases the block to fight is a punch in the face, I've experienced that against good pikers on my alts. Anyway, even though you would like to keep hurting the priority targets most of the time, killing off the enemies random infantry is also a key to winning the battle. The numerical advantage can be used to gank the better players afterwards too. It all depends on the situation what you want to do, but a piker should be attacking at almost all opportunities that comes. Hanging around doing nothing as one is just wasting a big damage potential, and also fear factor. People hates pikes in mass melee and can't play with the freedom they're used to.

Also, final point from me. If your group is losing, it's no shame to retreat to some other group. Your damage potential should not be wasted getting ganked with the worst 1 vs. 1 weapon in the game.


Edit. Also forgot to mention that Zerran's guide and Feliz's guide are definitely worth reading if you want to go with the pike. I kept this very short, but they went a bit deeper.

[Felix]

We got some really nice guide for new and experienced pikers. And it's up to date)

[Grumpy_Nic]

I'm currently using the follwowing build:

18/21
6PS
7ATH
7WM
3IF
163WPF in Pole

You can also swap the points in WM to IF. I wanted to see how a high-wpf build feels like. I usually use the longspear and go with groups, I always check that I have at least 1 teammate with me. Due to 7 ATH I can keep my distance to an enemy while my teammate keeps him busy and stab him whenever I see an opening. Great support build in my opinion, love it. I can also kill some people in 1vs1, only noobs though cuz I'm not a very good player myself.