Author Topic: Forced Teamplay  (Read 1572 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2012, 03:59:05 pm »
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Call it what you will, won't change the contents.

I don't think that 99% of all players can be considerate of 1% ninjas. At the most. You decided for a special role-playing-character, which already has lower effectivity than needed. You can't expect from all others to not create a teamplay system to not punish Ninjas. You don't want to play in a team? Okay. But please allow others to do so. Noone wants to punish you, you wanted to be a Ninja yourself.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kato

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2012, 04:13:45 pm »
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I don't think that 99% of all players can be considerate of 1% ninjas. At the most. You decided for a special role-playing-character, which already has lower effectivity than needed. You can't expect from all others to not create a teamplay system to not punish Ninjas. You don't want to play in a team? Okay. But please allow others to do so. Noone wants to punish you, you wanted to be a Ninja yourself.

So people are not allowed teamplay now. :rolleyes:
This is skillbase game and teamplay already beat skill. And people wants to play as hero and kill 2-3 singlehandedly, because its fun.
Teamplay is fun too, and you can always do it (if there is not enough people interested on public server, you can still apply for clan and play when clanmates are on), but 2 big mobs clash each other every round is not fun. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 04:15:55 pm by Kato »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2012, 04:28:28 pm »
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This sentence was directed at Ninja-Khorin's general attitude against a feature that rewards teamplay.

And yes, teamplay is actually self-rewarding, but this fact is not obvious enough for the random cRPG-lemming. Giving a direct and concrete reward for teamplay would increase gameplay. And this doesn't mean clusterfuck every time.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2012, 08:02:10 pm »
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Although sticking together and gang-banging usually works, especially when the players cant kill in 1 vs 1,

it really doesnt mean that the lone wolf flanking and taking out several archers doesnt work for his team. I often think that those players do more good to the team than those players that hide behind me, just waiting for the right moment to teamhit me when I am on my way to kill the opponent.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 08:03:38 pm by Michael »
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2012, 08:23:35 pm »
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You are right, but only IF he manages to do so. In most cases the Ninjas just get shot or lanced and that's it. The maps are too small and often too open to effectively move as a Ninja. Unless you can't kill several archers in the majority of all rounds (and you can't), I say it's better to stick to the team. Especially as infantry, because cavalry can do this job much better in most cases.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Ninja_Khorin

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2012, 10:03:30 pm »
+1
What that other guy said. Moving in one blob does not equal teamwork. Not in the slightest. Also, there are plenty of other flankers around than ninjas. I remember epic fights between wolves and ninjas in the flanks a few months back. And not all ninjas flank. However, as a ninja I will write this from my point of view and according to your stereotypical ninja theory(ninja = flanker).

You say ninjas are ineffective at their task. Perhaps. I'm usually well above halfway on the scoreboard on battle(the one gamemode where kills are of any significance) and I spend most of my time doing short flanking runs, leaving cav to do the longer ones(depending on the map). Some maps have good routes for long flanking runs, some are better for shorter ones. I stay away from the main group to avoid random teamhits and arrow fire aimed at the main group, because I don't have enough health and my armour is low. The kills I usually get are archers too slow to run away from me, backstabs and some fancy duels. These kills I get, because I always attack the enemy from behind or from the sides, because that's where the archers and exposed backs are. The fancy duels come from players that have any clue about their surroundings.

On a full frontal engagement between two groups the ninja is close to useless because you are outranged and the enemy is better equipped than you, meaning that you might have to hit the 3-4 times as opposed to their one hit. Also, the teamhits are much more detrimental. In fact, I usually tend to do better alone when I can puppet master the enemy group to block their own strikes and teamhit without having to worry about a teammate getting in the way.

The point of this rambling is this: Just because I'm not in the blob, does not mean I'm not working with the team. The reason I can get kills is because the enemy is focused on the main blob(archers being completely oblivious of their surroundings). My whole strategy depends on the fact that my team is distracting the enemy. If 5 enemies are focusing on me instead of the main group, then that means the main group has a momentary numerical advantage over the enemies main group. If only one is fighting me and I die, then that is because I suck. If that is not teamwork according to your definition, then I do not know what is.

You are right, but only IF he manages to do so.
But when he manages to do it, it is teamwork? Does that mean that every time the main blob dies a horrible death in the hands of the enemies main blob it is not considered teamwork?

I can't stress this enough: All battles atm, are already 85% of the people sticking together(not counting cav in that number) in one blob somewhere. That is usually a bunch of killhungry people doing anything to kill people, regardless of what's happening to the teammates. This suggestion would change very little, apart from making the 15% not in the main group even more ineffective at their attempt of any interesting strategy in battles.

I am in favour of some teamwork encouraging ideas, like shieldwalls strengthening the shield durability while in formation. And other such things. My negativity atm stems from my opposition of this particular suggestion, and some others like it, that I've seen.


TLDR: Too long didn't write.

EDIT: Just saw this:
You decided for a special role-playing-character, which already has lower effectivity than needed. You can't expect from all others to not create a teamplay system to not punish Ninjas.
cRPG. I'm pretty sure the "RPG" part stands for Role-Playing Game. I dunno what you other guys are up to.
I guess 2-h cav should also be made less effective, because it is too ineffective. This is not an argument to buff ninjas, just an argument to show the logical inconsistency in your argument. Ideally, all characters would be equally effective.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 10:14:18 pm by Ninja_Khorin »

Offline Winterly

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 10:15:37 pm »
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Your proposition is an incentive not forced.  I feel like the bonuses should be something small, like extra 2HP.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 10:17:09 pm by JeanneArc »
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2012, 10:46:34 pm »
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Fully agree with Khorin here.

Anyone can just hange around the main blob and get kills. What takes some skill is flanking and distracting a bunch of enemies. Winning the 3v1. The things that actually puts your team at an advantage rather than going blob vs blob and roll the die.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2012, 11:26:14 pm »
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[...]

Actually I agree to most of what you said. It all depends on the teamplay system you implement. Some time ago I suggested the following thing in the topic of your clanmate:

(click to show/hide)


We could easily exted the groups to a "flanking" or "ambush" group, with corresponding orders and rewards. This way you could get rewarded for your favourite way to play the game, and the others could receive some benefit more often than now, as with a good commander (and I suppose the community will find out who's a good commander and who's not very quickly) the entire tactic of the team can be adjusted to it. Which means your flanking maneuver will be at the spot that helps your team the most, and your team will do the best to support you in your flanking maneuver, for example by attacking at the other flank, distracting the enemy, so that you can not only charge from the side, but even from the back.

Something like that. The old clusterfuck system like pre-upkeep was not ideal. Especially for all other classes but infantry.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 11:27:16 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Ninja_Khorin

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2012, 01:47:21 am »
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Actually I agree to most of what you said. It all depends on the teamplay system you implement. Some time ago I suggested the following thing in the topic of your clanmate:
I knew you would. You tend to be a smart guy  :wink:

My main objection was to this suggestion, in particular..

And i have nothing against the sort of system that implements every type of way to play the game. I didn't read it in full, but I got the gist of it. The reason why ninjas often fail in the flanking, is becuase the flanking attack often comes too late or too early. But if there was a way to communicate with the main blob so we could make a coordinated attack it would improve the odds quite a lot. And I have seen these types of attacks happen(accidentally) and they've nearly always ended in a ton of dead enemies and my sword drenched in blood. Ninjas often die if the main blob doesn't attack quick enough, because we can't hold off all the archers and cav forever.

A more intricate command system would significantly improve on the game, m'thinks. And if the reward is completely monetary or xp based, then the incentive is strong, but you don't get forced to teamwork the same like if you'd get stat boosts for working together. It should remain optional to take part in, but to get levels faster would surely attrack at least most of the players, I think.


EDIT: HOLY HELL. I just realized I agreed with Michael in the other post. Christ, what have I become?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 01:51:56 am by Ninja_Khorin »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Forced Teamplay
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 02:22:54 am »
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EDIT: HOLY HELL. I just realized I agreed with Michael in the other post. Christ, what have I become?

I thought the same, because my post came after his and I started with "You are right", but I have to say he started to become reasonable once he stopped defending the tincan-elephant-rider of being a viable and balanced class.  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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