Author Topic: Class balance ?  (Read 1513 times)

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Offline Lizard_man

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Class balance ?
« on: December 23, 2011, 10:50:25 am »
+5
I'm not sure what it's like on other servers, i imagen it's the same, but on EU_1, one team usually gets dominated every single round, and it goes on like this for most maps. One team usually has more ranged, or tends to have most of the cavalry. I think it would be alot better if the balance took into account the class of players, giving a much more even amount of the same class to each team. It's very frustrating when one team has all the cavalry and they're simply dominating, it would be great if something like this was implemented. I'm sure this has been suggested before, the last thread was a fail i think, but something needs to be done about this awful balance we have...
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Offline Rumblood

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2011, 06:35:21 pm »
0
I think the blame for one team dominating for rounds is far more likely to lie at the feet of upkeep and people using crap at x1 and their Holy Avenger's at x5.

If one team has all the cavalry, then the other team is going to have all the archers, or all the pikes, or some class the other team is missing by virtue of having all the cavalry. Those cavalry are easily countered by teamwork. The problem is that cavalry will often ride in a mob, while infantry scatters to the wind and rarely offers coordinated resistance in nearly even numbers.

5 cavalry loses to 2 pikes, a shielder, a 2 hander and an archer if they are looking out for each other.
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Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 11:03:18 pm »
+1
Have to agree with Lizard.

Worst case is when one team has most cav and most ranged. That happens as well and it's no fun to play

Offline Joker86

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2011, 12:39:26 am »
+2
I think the blame for one team dominating for rounds is far more likely to lie at the feet of upkeep and people using crap at x1 and their Holy Avenger's at x5.

If one team has all the cavalry, then the other team is going to have all the archers, or all the pikes, or some class the other team is missing by virtue of having all the cavalry. Those cavalry are easily countered by teamwork. The problem is that cavalry will often ride in a mob, while infantry scatters to the wind and rarely offers coordinated resistance in nearly even numbers.

5 cavalry loses to 2 pikes, a shielder, a 2 hander and an archer if they are looking out for each other.

In reality things work differently. cRPG has a retard percentage of 90%, most people even refuse to listen to suggestions/commands of others as a matter of principle, because they are smart themselves, noone needs to be smart for them, so they don't listen and do what THEY think is best. Which usually is running into the first mob of 5 or more enemy players and then spending the rest of the time in spectator mode. because that's fun for them.

People are unpatient, and they don't think about the game. If you have to attack over an open field, the enemy cavalry will wreak havoc among your team, so if you could simply wait for the enemy cavalry to become unpatient and then taken out by the archers or pikemen, you could advance way safer, but even the small and absolutely logical suggestion of "Don't attack before their cavalry is down" appearently is too much to understand for the average cRPG player. And this is only one example.

If a team is constantly losing, it would be the most logical thing to change the behaviour, as the current behaviour didn't lead to success, but do you think people listen to "Defend the ruins, this way you are safe from their cavalry and archers, and THEY have to charge if they don't want to lose their multiplier in a draw!"? Nah, the players MUST have their own head, and charge straightaway to their 0:4 map result, because they don't need anybody else thinking for them and the [W]-key is so comfortable, it's really difficult to release it.  :rolleyes:

And yes, I tend to even follow plans I think they are not the best, as I am aware that everyone following a bad plan is still better than everyone following his own plan. Because my self-esteem is so good, I CAN stand the idea of listening to the ideas of someone else over the internet without feeling like being patronized.

I think if the developers would implement some features which support using tactics, and would choose their maps more carefully to grant fair matches, the problems with the unfair distribution of classes between the teams would not be so much of a problem any more.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2011, 12:49:14 am »
+1
Usually people just stupidly charge forwards, mostly all to the same direction.
If that "tactic" works, they do it for 2-3 more rounds and the gods know why, in the 4th or 5th round they suddenly change their "tactic" by charging somewhere else and die   :lol:  :rolleyes:

Offline Kay of Sauvage

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2011, 01:14:42 am »
0
I think you're mostly just seeing things. It's also a bit of what Joker said. People tend to rush in to get the nearest potential kill, so they fan out to encircle the enemy as much as possible or chase off to do some lone ninja attacking... and few people have the patience to actively defend against cav by sitting in a 2nd rank of battle, and the loner ninjas end up being a target of an overwhelming force of archers and/or cav. And sure, if the other team had fewer cav or archers, these "tactics" would have worked batter.



I see teams get beaten round after round and usually can't pinpoint the cause as any class being disproportionally assigned to one team or the other. I think it's just that when one team does win easily and happens to have lots of either archers or cav, you notice it. But every time the cav-heavy or archer-heavy team loses, you think nothing of it. But if you think about it, how many times have you seen a team win easily and then have to chase down a bunch of archers to finish the job? That's an archer-heavy team losing. (Cav-heavy teams tend to lose cav regularly throughout the battle, rather than being the last ones left).

I think what you're seeing is just that when a team beats another badly, the cav and archers become the most visible in finishing off the losing team. The remaining cav have an easy time chasing down and cleaning up the remaining enemies, and all the archers end up shooting at the same few targets with no threat to their own safety. So at the end, 5 cav looks like a stampede, and 10 archers look like a firing brigade. If it's just 10 infantry cleaning up, nobody seems to notice and blame an infantry imbalance.

Also, when a team is winning easily, it tends to make it a lot easier for archers and cav to survive (since the enemy is becoming overwhelmed and is less threat to archers or cav), while infantry tend to continue to die on a more regular basis (since an outnumbered group of infantry can still tend to get nearly even kills against more enemies, until their number dwindles and they become surrounded).

Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2011, 01:23:20 am »
0


(Cav-heavy teams tend to lose cav regularly throughout the battle, rather than being the last ones left).


Please what? o.O

I can't count how often the last guy is a guy on a horse (and no, I'm not talking about horsearchers) who tries to kill the other 10 guys of the other team and thus delays the game for ages or lets it end in a draw...


I think what you're seeing is just that when a team beats another badly, the cav and archers become the most visible in finishing off the losing team. The remaining cav have an easy time chasing down and cleaning up the remaining enemies, and all the archers end up shooting at the same few targets with no threat to their own safety. So at the end, 5 cav looks like a stampede, and 10 archers look like a firing brigade. If it's just 10 infantry cleaning up, nobody seems to notice and blame an infantry imbalance.

Well, I for myself actually talk about the first minute or maybe two minutes of a battle. When the team is attacked by 10-15 horses from all sides without any chance of real cover.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 01:26:04 am by Gisbert_of_Thuringia »

Offline Kay of Sauvage

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2011, 04:00:01 am »
0
Please what? o.O

I can't count how often the last guy is a guy on a horse (and no, I'm not talking about horsearchers) who tries to kill the other 10 guys of the other team and thus delays the game for ages or lets it end in a draw...

Yeah, that's great and all, but we're not talking about 1 cav surviving to the end. Is there a point here?

Quote
Well, I for myself actually talk about the first minute or maybe two minutes of a battle. When the team is attacked by 10-15 horses from all sides without any chance of real cover.

Well, you can't fix stupid. If people can't be bothered to work with teammates or simply look around for themselves and dodge/downblock on their own, it's really their own fault. They just need to learn to deal with cav. I certainly have no problem slaughtering cav while on the ground, let alone surviving. I don't think there's a need to force some sort of class-based balance so that the poor players on both sides are equally susceptible being killed for being stupid.

Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2011, 08:59:05 am »
-2
Oh yes sorry Kay, I forgot that some people in this game are just most epic gods, whereas the rest, even the best players, are total noobs and can't do anything but die, because they are too stupid to play this game :rolleyes:


Jeez, do you ever play on a battleserver? :rolleyes:

Offline Kay of Sauvage

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2011, 11:18:17 pm »
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Oh yes sorry Kay, I forgot that some people in this game are just most epic gods, whereas the rest, even the best players, are total noobs and can't do anything but die, because they are too stupid to play this game :rolleyes:

Just about every time I see cav killing some people at the start, it's because they are either running forward completely oblivious to anything around them, or they are AFK. They aren't even trying.

I don't think balancing the number of cav to each team is going to stop that, and even if it did, I still wouldn't think it'd provide much of any balance to the outcomes of the battles one way or the other. I mean, an advantage in cav numbers doesn't mean the team is more likely to win. I see teams with a big cav advantage often get slaughtered as they have to charge into numerically superior infantry (who are beating their infantry in numbers) since it's easier for there to be "spare" infantry who are aware and stop the charges. And you also get a lot more pileups as cav get in each other's way. Personally, I actually like being on the team with fewer cav...

But most importantly, I like the variety of battles that you can get when there is no class-based balance.

Offline PieParadox

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 02:38:30 am »
0
To me, the only cav that are annoying are the damn heavy armoured horses. Why don't any other class get huge money sinks too that make them invincible!

(derp, ridin around on my armoured horse with steel/hide shield lulul)

Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2011, 01:53:02 pm »
0
I think this is a brilliant idea, it is quite common that you see a team purely with 2h against a team consisting mainly of archers. Not only would this stop rage polls about archery and other classes, but it would also encourage more teamwork. So overall I would like to see something like this implemented.

Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2011, 12:34:54 pm »
0
In reality things work differently. cRPG has a retard percentage of 90%, most people even refuse to listen to suggestions/commands of others as a matter of principle, because they are smart themselves, noone needs to be smart for them, so they don't listen and do what THEY think is best. Which usually is running into the first mob of 5 or more enemy players and then spending the rest of the time in spectator mode. because that's fun for them.

People are unpatient, and they don't think about the game. If you have to attack over an open field, the enemy cavalry will wreak havoc among your team, so if you could simply wait for the enemy cavalry to become unpatient and then taken out by the archers or pikemen, you could advance way safer, but even the small and absolutely logical suggestion of "Don't attack before their cavalry is down" appearently is too much to understand for the average cRPG player. And this is only one example.

If a team is constantly losing, it would be the most logical thing to change the behaviour, as the current behaviour didn't lead to success, but do you think people listen to "Defend the ruins, this way you are safe from their cavalry and archers, and THEY have to charge if they don't want to lose their multiplier in a draw!"? Nah, the players MUST have their own head, and charge straightaway to their 0:4 map result, because they don't need anybody else thinking for them and the [W]-key is so comfortable, it's really difficult to release it.  :rolleyes:

And yes, I tend to even follow plans I think they are not the best, as I am aware that everyone following a bad plan is still better than everyone following his own plan. Because my self-esteem is so good, I CAN stand the idea of listening to the ideas of someone else over the internet without feeling like being patronized.

I think if the developers would implement some features which support using tactics, and would choose their maps more carefully to grant fair matches, the problems with the unfair distribution of classes between the teams would not be so much of a problem any more.
agreed, only that going out into an open field and wait there for them is often the best method to eliminate them. Its often enough to have 2-3 good 2h and pikeman plus some cav support to wipe out the whole enemy cav. But in most times people just run into the assumed safe village or hills and get raped by cav coming from different direction where you can't see them coming.

Offline Templar_Ratigan

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Re: Class balance ?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 11:54:58 am »
0
Quote
Re: Class balance ?

But I thought this game had no classes? Merely play style's...oh but I forgot, the illusion of choice is strong in this module....more so since any real choice was taken away.
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