Spear and Sheild

[MaHuD]

Aye, but they shouldn't be useless in 1 vs 1.
It shouldn't be easy to win, but atleast you should be able to hold and wait for help

[Ylca]

Aye, but they shouldn't be useless in 1 vs 1.
It shouldn't be easy to win, but atleast you should be able to hold and wait for help

They aren't optimal 1v1 that's for sure, but they're not exactly completely useless. As for the waiting for help, with a decent shield, superior speed to most players, and a huge engagement range i haven't seen getting back to teammates as a problem, to the point where i specifically get "cut off" drag 3 or so fighters away from the main group and back over towards either the cavalry i saw coming from across the map, or my teammates waiting over the ridge of the hill. Bonus points in that you're fast enough to bob and weave through the enemies gaining my favorite of victories, the forced-tk.

[Kafein]

If you grabbed a hoplite thinking you will get the most kills in a round, you will be very sad.

If you grabbed a hoplite thinking that you would use your polearm-stun to assist kills, your shield and range to distract and harass enemies, your main weapon to demolish cavalry and often times keep them from even approaching (especially your best buddies, ranged characters), that through your gear and build you would be able to casually choose when to engage and disengage, and that you would survive to the end of almost every round, even in lighter armor- you will be very pleased.

Hoplites are like god's gift to team players.

You seem to be quite experienced in this. Tell me, what are the basic differences between a hoplite and a pikeman ? I know the latter and I thought I could try the former.

[ArchonAlarion]

I'm guessing a "hoplite" is spear+shield and pikemen is a guy with a pike.

I don't think spear+shield should be a very effective build, at least in the absence of teamwork. Using a spear with one hand and a shield in the other would be difficult and require a lot of arm strength/stamina. The shorter the spear, the more effective the build should be. Even 1Hing awlpikes is pretty ridiculous. Ideally, spear+shield builds are good in close groups against 2H, against ranged, and non-spear/lance cavalry. Pikemen will suffer against ranged, can outrange lance cav, and are better 1v1 (more attack directions).

[Digglez]

I'm guessing a "hoplite" is spear+shield and pikemen is a guy with a pike.

I don't think spear+shield should be a very effective build, at least in the absence of teamwork. Using a spear with one hand and a shield in the other would be difficult and require a lot of arm strength/stamina. The shorter the spear, the more effective the build should be. Even 1Hing awlpikes is pretty ridiculous. Ideally, spear+shield builds are good in close groups against 2H, against ranged, and non-spear/lance cavalry. Pikemen will suffer against ranged, can outrange lance cav, and are better 1v1 (more attack directions).

Ever heard of a guy named Alexander the Great? Who conquered 1/5 of the worlds population at the time?  He used hoplites and lighter version of hoplites that used pikes instead of spears.

Using a shield and spear requires no more strength than it takes to pull and hold a longbow.  Archeologists have found bowman remains with bonespurs their muscles were so fucked up from being so strong on their bow arm.

Uh no, shorter spear is not more effective.  You ever see the counterweight thats on the end of longer warspears?  Uh, might wanna educate yourself.  Weight + reach = death dealing.

Shield + spear = one of the best combos ever created for warfare.  Blocking spears is a joke in this game and theres no shield based attacks or moves (bull rush, push backs, etc).

[Blondin]

I'm waiting to see a real hoplite formation in cRPG (or Strat), and i wonder if it's really possible with the game engine.

But it could be interesting to see atleast 6 guys in line of 3 with hoplite formation, but it could be awesome to see a Strat battle with a 3 lines of 10 guys standing in front of an infantry charge. This will need a lot of teamwork.

[Spawny]

I'm waiting to see a real hoplite formation in cRPG (or Strat), and i wonder if it's really possible with the game engine.

But it could be interesting to see atleast 6 guys in line of 3 with hoplite formation, but it could be awesome to see a Strat battle with a 3 lines of 10 guys standing in front of an infantry charge. This will need a lot of teamwork.

And then they got flanked by archers and shot to pieces.

[EponiCo]

Hoplite builds can actually be fairly nice for hunting flanking archers. War spear + round shield, cav will leave you alone. When you get to the archer drop your shield and fight with 2h spear.

[ArchonAlarion]

Ever heard of a guy named Alexander the Great? Who conquered 1/5 of the worlds population at the time?  He used hoplites and lighter version of hoplites that used pikes instead of spears.

Yes, and those hoplites worked in close formation, which was the reason why they were effective... like I said. They would not be so effective 1v1 (unless they pulled out a short sword). Also, when they used longer spears, they'd use them two handed (keeping the shield passive on their forearms). What is the issue here again?

Using a shield and spear requires no more strength than it takes to pull and hold a longbow.  Archeologists have found bowman remains with bonespurs their muscles were so fucked up from being so strong on their bow arm.

Yeah, so you'd have to be pretty jacked to use them. In other words, it takes high str to use effectively, as opposed to two handing it, requiring less strength.

Uh no, shorter spear is not more effective.  You ever see the counterweight thats on the end of longer warspears?  Uh, might wanna educate yourself.  Weight + reach = death dealing.

Weight + reach = fatigue. They were able to pull this off because of their close formation. A shorter spear would be faster and less tiring. Also, you have more control over a shorter weapon, no matter how much you balance a longer one with weights. Their formation allowed each individual to conserve shots and be protected from close combat, where their long spears could not be drawn back fast enough or far enough to strike an opponent in close range.

Shield + spear = one of the best combos ever created for warfare.

Sure, but not for the small scale, individualistic style of crpg. The key is in the mass tight formation.

 

Blocking spears is a joke in this game and theres no shield based attacks or moves (bull rush, push backs, etc).

Agreed.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

Any and all references to realism and historical accuracy are wrong, at least when a discussion regarding game mechanics is happening. I'm not singleing any particular person out, but I highly suggest that those who bring history into these discussion, with a few exceptions, must seek out the closest person to them and request that that person shit down their throat without mercy for the period of five hours.

Historical shit and realism are great (I'm a history major, that sort of stuff gives me a boner), but only as a bonus. It enhances the gaming experience, and draws the player into the battle more than if the participants were beating eachother with unrealistic weapons, like massive purple dildoes or salmon.

Anyway, it seems that the reason that spear and shield users have trouble inflicting damage on their enemies is the malign, evil presence of of the shield spear penalty. Obviously the penalty has a purpose, however I must bitch: sheild/spear users inflict FAR less damage than their opponents, and can only attack in one direction.

But apparently this is ok, because they can stab far, and have a shield.

I doubt very much anything I, or anybody else, will say can convince the development team to remove or alter the shield penalty--it could very well be hardcoded, or perhaps fucking with it might break the game. If this is what will happen I accept it, for I am an amazing player no matter the circumstances.

[Ylca]

I'm guessing a "hoplite" is spear+shield and pikemen is a guy with a pike.

I don't think spear+shield should be a very effective build, at least in the absence of teamwork. Using a spear with one hand and a shield in the other would be difficult and require a lot of arm strength/stamina. The shorter the spear, the more effective the build should be. Even 1Hing awlpikes is pretty ridiculous. Ideally, spear+shield builds are good in close groups against 2H, against ranged, and non-spear/lance cavalry. Pikemen will suffer against ranged, can outrange lance cav, and are better 1v1 (more attack directions).

Hoplite:

Sword + Shield + Spear (other polearms for variety, spear is bread and butter- preferably Red Tassel Spear, the fastest).

Pro: Amazing support. Can defend like a beast. Cav coming? Turn around and show him your spear and watch how quickly he leaves your archer buddies alone. Other archers an issue? Pull up your Steel shield, Huscarls, or Round shield (depending on preference) and you are an instant source of cover. Teammates fighting an enemy? "LOL I DOWNBLOCK YOU!" That's great until your buddy to your left starts swinging side to side while you constantly thrust. With a high enough speed and a partner, no one should be able to drop their shield, and 2hers should go down pretty quickly between getting poke stunned and missing blocks.

Always stay near your team. If you're interested in some solowork however, drop down to Khergit, or Saranid Leather Armor and grab a buckler. You'll have to semi-manually block arrows and incoming slices, but you will also move like the wind. Use hills and terrain as cover, give enemy ranged a suprise party they will never forget.

Cons:

Polearms take a penalty to speed/damage with the shield. Steel shields are heavy and decrease your mobility. Switching from a polearm to your sidearm when you've been rushed by a 2her is an exercise in fancy footwork, one has to step through (past) the opponent, turn fast enough to block the swing coming, and step back (and have enough ath) to backpedal, switch out, and have the shield up for the next strike. "Lol, downblock forever." You will not be optimal 1v1 and unless you're better at aiming than me you'll be getting assists instead of kills. Assists are fine when that x5 multiplier keeping you company, however.

Dedicated Pikeman

100% Polearms. I haven't tried this build yet, but not splitting points between wpf makes your polearms unspeakably swift. With the proper aim one can keep a group of enemy far at bay with a good pike and some timing. I'll flesh this out more after i've actually tried the class, i will say i know there's at least 1 guy who can use the full long pike better in close quarters than i can use a red tassel spear. The number of kills he gets is disgusting and awe inspiring.

For this build you are essentially a 2her with all the problems that entails, but one major benefit: Polearm stun.

[MaHuD]

I keep getting teamkilled, say about 75 percent of all rounds I play in.
 (Mostly by cav and archers )
Support class doesn't seem to be very handy when everyone has insane speed and an idiotic "friendly" horseman decides to just ride through you taking half of your life..