Las Vegas SHooting

[Grytviken]

That's not how it works; there's a reason Western militaries almost never use full auto, and that reason isn't because they don't want to put more lead down range for higher enemy casualties. It's because fully automatic fire when not in CQB decreases enemy casualties and wastes time and ammo. If you're not "highly trained", that's all the more reason to stick to single fire. You need to be "highly trained" to use full auto effectively.

Actually that is how it works. There are 4-5 light machine guns or automatic rifles in each Infantry Squadron of 12 + attachments from weapons company with more automatics or heavy machine guns. There's never been a higher ratio of automatic weapons than now in the military.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam   

[Paul]

I think one reason for that is a doctrine change from "muh aimed shots" to "keep them down until the cavalry arrives" in the western militaries. Surpression with bursts is far more effective than with single shots afaik. I read somewhere that the amount of ammo an individual German rifleman carries on a patrol in Afghanistan multiplied by 3 or 4. That's probably why the whole G36 witch hunt started. They misused a budget infantry rifle as a support weapon - a role it couldn't quite fulfill under that circumstances.

Increasing the amount of weapons that are designed for sustained automatic fire in a team seems the logical step. So even the M27 makes sense. The ammo industry approves.

[Xant]

Actually that is how it works. There are 4-5 light machine guns or automatic rifles in each Infantry Squadron of 12 + attachments from weapons company with more automatics or heavy machine guns. There's never been a higher ratio of automatic weapons than now in the military.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam

How does any of what you said contradict any of what I said? You should try comprehending the context first, maybe. Do you understand what an automatic weapon is? Of course there's a "high ratio of automatic weapons" when literally every gun except for the antiquated M16s is capable of automatic fire. And as for machine guns, USMC has actually been moving away from them and towards more accurate, 30-round rifles for their machine gunners.

With a SAW, the doctrine of fire suppression is the sound of continuous fire with rounds landing close to the enemy. While the M249's volume of fire may be greater, it is less accurate. Experienced troops who have dealt with incoming fire are less likely to take cover from incoming rounds if they are not close enough. With an IAR, the doctrine is that lower volume of fire is needed with better accuracy. Fewer rounds need to be used and automatic riflemen can remain in combat longer and in more situations.

With the M249 SAW, the idea of suppression was volume of fire and the sound of the machine gun. With the M27 IAR, the idea of suppression shifts to engaging with precision fire, as it has rifle accuracy at long range and fully automatic fire at short range.

IAR gunners consider the rifle-grade accuracy to be a huge improvement over the SAW, despite the loss of sustained firing.

[Grytviken]

How does any of what you said contradict any of what I said? You should try comprehending the context first, maybe. Do you understand what an automatic weapon is? Of course there's a "high ratio of automatic weapons" when literally every gun except for the antiquated M16s is capable of automatic fire. And as for machine guns, USMC has actually been moving away from them and towards more accurate, 30-round rifles for their machine gunners.

They are using the M27s to replace the semi-automatic m16's and m4's in rifle platoons, not to replace the m249. The m4 and m16 is the weapon that has been lacking in long range accuracy and suppression.

[Xant]

They are using the M27s to replace the semi-automatic m16's and m4's in rifle platoons, not to replace the m249. The m4 and m16 is the weapon that has been lacking in long range accuracy and suppression.

Wut? It's literally used to replace the M249, but now they're looking to add more IARs. It takes 5 seconds of Googling to prove you wrong, which means you should've used those five seconds before making an obviously inaccurate claim. You can even find it on the wikipedia page of M27......

10 seconds of googling gives you:

The U.S. Marine Corps is planning to purchase 6,500 M27s to replace a portion of the M249 light machine guns currently employed by automatic riflemen within Infantry and Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalions.

It is based on their HK416 carbine and was fielded to the Marines to supplant beltfed the M249 SAW in the Rifle Squad.

The M249's possible replacement, the M27 infantry automatic rifle, has already been deployed among Marines and is now carried by the automatic rifleman in each Marine squad.
The M27 was first introduced in 2010, originally meant to replace the M249, but the Marine Corps is reportedly considering replacing every infantryman's M4 with an M27.

USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR

Military.com reports that the Marines will be replacing the M249 SAW with the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle.

Marine infantry squads will replace their M249 light machine gun with a highly accurate, auto rifle geared for fast-moving assaults

[Grytviken]

Wut? It's literally used to replace the M249, but now they're looking to add more IARs. It takes 5 seconds of Googling to prove you wrong, which means you should've used those five seconds before making an obviously inaccurate claim. You can even find it on the wikipedia page of M27......

10 seconds of googling gives you:

The U.S. Marine Corps is planning to purchase 6,500 M27s to replace a portion of the M249 light machine guns currently employed by automatic riflemen within Infantry and Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalions.

It is based on their HK416 carbine and was fielded to the Marines to supplant beltfed the M249 SAW in the Rifle Squad.

The M249's possible replacement, the M27 infantry automatic rifle, has already been deployed among Marines and is now carried by the automatic rifleman in each Marine squad.
The M27 was first introduced in 2010, originally meant to replace the M249, but the Marine Corps is reportedly considering replacing every infantryman's M4 with an M27.

USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR

Military.com reports that the Marines will be replacing the M249 SAW with the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle.

Marine infantry squads will replace their M249 light machine gun with a highly accurate, auto rifle geared for fast-moving assaults

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/2017/04/02/the-corps-quest-for-the-best-rifle-for-infantrymen/

[Xant]

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/2017/04/02/the-corps-quest-for-the-best-rifle-for-infantrymen/

Yes, good job proving my point, retard. Rarely have I seen such a self-celebration of reading incomprehension.

[Grytviken]

Yes, good job proving you are I am a retard. Rarely have I seen such a self-celebration of reading incomprehension.

" The Marine Corps started fielding more than 4,000 M27 IARs back in 2010, initially thinking they would replace the M249 squad automatic weapons. But ultimately the Corps decided it needed both weapons "

[Xant]

" The Marine Corps started fielding more than 4,000 M27 IARs back in 2010, initially thinking they would replace the M249 squad automatic weapons. But ultimately the Corps decided it needed both weapons "

But over the years, Marines have come to prioritize accuracy. In April 2011, the IAR got its first taste of combat when Hawaii-based 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines took it to Garmser, Afghanistan.

While the M249 can put more rounds downrange, the IAR allowed Marines to provide suppressive fire with greater precision, Marines said.

"It’s been almost a paradigm shift in understanding what suppression is," 1st Lt. Tom Rigby told Marine Corps Times. "It’s always been understood by the junior Marine that volume of fire and the sound of the machine gun equaled suppression."

The IAR also proved to be highly accurate at long distances, so Marines with the weapon could be used as ­designated marksmen.

"On single-shot, you can hit 800 yards no problem," Lance Cpl. Joshua Houck told Marine Corps Times. "I love that you can go from single shot to full auto with the flick of a switch."

These days, most rifle companies are issued 27 IARs and six SAWs, a Marine Corps official said.


27 IARs and six SAWs for 140-180 Marines, hmmm, certainly SAWs weren't replaced at all :thinking:

3 rifle platoons of 3 squads of 3 teams of 4, and every team has one automatic gunner, so how many of those have SAWs do you think brah?? ::::::thinking::::::::

[Grytviken]

3 rifle platoons of 3 squads of 3 teams of 4, and every team has one automatic gunner, so how many of those have SAWs do you think brah?? ::::::thinking::::::::

  This is a situational experimental doctrine in an already small organization (Marines) within an even smaller pool of specialists (Light Infantry maybe 5% of the Corps or less). The majority of Infantry are Mechanized and have a much different job and doctrine than Light Infantry.

 Everything here points that they are replacing the m4 and m-16 (weapon from antiquity) for more automatic fire or concentrating on a hybrid doctrine merging the squad designated marksmen and automatic rifleman into a new role to replace the standard rifleman getting the best of both worlds. The Army has already been doing this employing  SDM's in place of riflemen in fireteams with m-14 variants that are 7.62 vs the m4 5.56.

A nice post from reddit about this whole experiment

"As a former Marine Infantryman, I can say without hesitation that the M27 represents a significant decrease in the effectiveness of the Marine Fire Team.
Suppressive fire is not meant to be as accurate as an A4 or other weapons organic to the rifle squad. It is an area-suppressive weapon. You want precision? Get a DMR or other rifle specifically designed for that role. You don't replace the hammer in your tool box with a big wrench and expect it to perform the same. And that is exactly what they are doing. The SAW is the hammer of the Marine rifle squad.
It disgusts me how myopic our military leaders are, even when they are classically trained to understand the propensity to always "fight the war we just fought". This notion of ditching our SAWs for things that are better for CQB is the height of fucking ignorant POG stupidity. Saws being chopped down with a baseplate installed (like what the Army was starting to do in 04) is perfectly reasonable if you want to play the "urban combat" card.
Nothing good will come from this IAR nonsense. It is a solution looking for a problem and, in the end, will only create more headaches for our servicemen when the day comes when we actually have to face off against an ACTUAL military again. Not just a bunch of goat-fucking child rapers that are actually closer to a militia than anything else."

The 5.56 of the M27 will never match the Army's SDM 7.62 M-14 in terms of long range accuracy, at best it's just a superior replacement to the M4 that has an automatic option.