Socialism

[Rumblood]

Still society has long begun to capitalize on the lack of self responsibility of so many, who dont get up and educate themselves but stay at the low end of day-jobs in manpower leasing companies, in free work contracts without any adequate insurance, etc.

Further there are some who are at the bottom end of society by disability and pure bad luck in life (illness, accidents, coming out of really bad backgrounds, thrown back by private disasters, etc). Those people should not be forced to lead a life from water and potatos in insufficient heated flats. And dont tell me that in our days we can pass on the welfare of the unlucky in the hands of theire relatives or charity of good will. Social cohesion has declined to much for this to happen.

Especially if you think about the old and disabled you will notice that there is a downward trend in public funds, witch I think is alarming.

Society has always been that way. It will also always have people who have more and people who have less. The peasant type working class will always exist in every country. In America at least, you don't have to stay there. You can work your way up by being not smart, but by not being stupid, and not by being lucky, but by working. We have too many immigrant families who come here, live in a 3 bedroom house with 10-12 people, who work and save their money to first buy the house, then buy a corner store or gas station or restaurant for one of the families. Then they work there and the profits go to buy the next one their store. Then on down the line. Then they buy each family their own house. They didn't even speak the language when they got here, had as much to their name as any homeless person, but do they cry for a handout? No, they got out and worked and helped each other. And if you don't have a family, then make a family of your choosing. Hell, if 6 people making fast food wages shared a 2 bedroom apartment they could all save about half of their money each month for getting ahead. But they don't because they prefer to try to live the dream with unnecessary luxuries before they worked themselves up to actually be able to support living the dream, and not just the empty shell that the poor think is what "making it" is all about.
Those in power will always try to keep it, there will always be people who could work and do more, but will always do nothing so long as they can get by without working at all if they can find a hand willing to give to them and enable them in their sloth. Those old and disabled would have a hell of a lot more if not for the able bodied who take advantage of any system and leech off of it at the expense of the old and disabled.
There is a saying that goes "God helps those who help themselves." I've always helped out the guy who has the sign that says "will work for food" by sending him by my house to mow my lawn for cash. But the guy I always see out there with his sign saying "hungry, please help" and then later I see him outside the liquor store? Well he can well and truly fuck off. 

[Thomek]

"You can't predict what one man will do, but you can easily predict what a million will."

or smth like that, can't recollect the quote perfectly.

I understand your reasoning Rumblood, but I find it incredibly naive. Yes, it SHOULD be like you propose, but it ain't like that in reality for some strange reason. People can be rational but they are not, so something is probably messing with their ability to be so.

People are under pressure from marketing, and by consequence, their friends, their family, the whole society, to buy those new Nikes so they believe they are cooler on the street or can get the girl. (While in reality, it has near zero influence on the girl, unless she is also brainwashed and can't be with a man without new Nikes.) As you probably understand, companies with statistics and marketing win against the consumer, every time. You may not buy a single commercial you see, but when your wife/girlfriend/father/brother does, you can get screwed and pressured into it. It happens to you and me every time, even by the simple availability of goods. For sure we could get jogging shoes for 20% of the price if we went for some obscure marque we imported ourselves from china. I personally have a pair of Asics.

People want their happiness NOW, not later. Patience is an art lost in huge areas of the world. Sorry, but a jew eating rice, sharing apartment with 3 other jews, just won't get laid in the ghetto.   (Even if in 3 years that guy works on wall street. Maybe.)

If you get my drift. You simplify, and by that your ideological conviction sounds just like from a dogmatic socialist.

(And for immigrants doing well in the U.S I suspect it may well have to do with that marketers don't feel like going after them. Probably not enough status. Probably a huge untaken market there btw.. Their goal is clear and simple, we can't be happy and respected unless we get fixed up first. We have nothing but work right now. New Nikes won't change a thing, and they know it. If any chinese, american and cool (?) pop phenomenon showed up, If I was a marketeer in Nike, I would SHOWER them in free shoes!)

[Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo]

What I wonder is why america has only two partys: democrats and err.. them oil weapon.. ah. republicans.. whats this?

Pretty sure most Americans aren't happy with our two party system. I think it's pretty bad, but maybe a smarter American can make an argument in favor of it.

[Xant]

"Smart American" is an oxymoron

[Eugen]

Society has always been that way. It will also always have people who have more and people who have less. The peasant type working class will always exist in every country. In America at least, you don't have to stay there. You can work your way up by being not smart, but by not being stupid, and not by being lucky, but by working.

Your words are truely american: everyone can work his way up.
The problem is that those "bad" jobs still exist. Someone has to do them (most of bad jobs that can be done in other countries are outsourced to countries with "more obliged" working peasants anyhow, which is another story). I dont demand that those people should be showered in gold but that fair conditions should be set by law. I know staff expense is one of the bigger costs of companies. Especially small and middle sized businesses (like those from your hard working immigrants) might have problems with that.

Still it might be worth it to have slightly less investment money in the coffers of the companies. In return they gain a more stable middle and lower class, which maybe would cause less problems in terms of criminality, disdain and frustration.

We have too many immigrant families who come here, live in a 3 bedroom house with 10-12 people, who work and save their money to first buy the house, then buy a corner store or gas station or restaurant for one of the families. Then they work there and the profits go to buy the next one their store. Then on down the line. Then they buy each family their own house. They didn't even speak the language when they got here, had as much to their name as any homeless person, but do they cry for a handout? No, they got out and worked and helped each other. And if you don't have a family, then make a family of your choosing. Hell, if 6 people making fast food wages shared a 2 bedroom apartment they could all save about half of their money each month for getting ahead. But they don't because they prefer to try to live the dream with unnecessary luxuries before they worked themselves up to actually be able to support living the dream, and not just the empty shell that the poor think is what "making it" is all about.

Thats america too. In most european countries you will have to overcome many administrative barriers before you can do your business. Still its possible.

Slightly exaggerated with a question mark: In america you can start up your snack bar, get the meat from wild dogs and rats and let your children work instead of sending them to school without much problem? European countries would not allow those poor immigrant to run such a business easy.

Another thing is that someone who has nothing will do everything to get something. But if you take the persepective of a spoiled brat from american or european lower class its not that easy to get his ass off and risk some of his hard earned (or well handed down) bucks to open up a business that might succeed or might just crash and leave him with less then he started with (a heap of debts). Or he educates and gets into a better job, well fine.. Or he stays at his family roots and keeps on working in working class jobs - what should be fine too - but often is just crap or in danger of becoming crap becouse of the exploiting that is done (increasing "flexibility" in working times - what about family?, pressure on the individual employee in being exchangeable, intense monitoring, more overtime without payment = less wage, ...)

Those in power will always try to keep it, there will always be people who could work and do more, but will always do nothing so long as they can get by without working at all if they can find a hand willing to give to them and enable them in their sloth. Those old and disabled would have a hell of a lot more if not for the able bodied who take advantage of any system and leech off of it at the expense of the old and disabled.
There is a saying that goes "God helps those who help themselves." I've always helped out the guy who has the sign that says "will work for food" by sending him by my house to mow my lawn for cash. But the guy I always see out there with his sign saying "hungry, please help" and then later I see him outside the liquor store? Well he can well and truly fuck off. 

Right, abusing of welfare is a shame. It happens and those who do it inspite of having enough wealth on their own should be severely punished. Those who decide to live of welfare in poverty although maybe they could do more - well -  better they are cared for as they are out on the street unattended.

And those in power definitly should be under some public control. Because if they fail (or corrupt), much more money is burnt in comparison to what all welfareabusers would cost in a year (i guess; hard to get numbers here). Thats what goverments should be for. But thats another dream...

PS: All i really know  about america comes from movies...

[Smithy]

"Smart American" is an oxymoron

PS: All i really know  about america comes from movies...

lol


I'm guessing Xant is in a similar position as you, Eugen.  If I judged Europe off of movies I would think that, Jews would be in concentration camps, the French would walk around with white flags, the Polish military would be charging tanks from horseback, everyone in Italy would sound like "badda boom badda bing", all Russians wear tracksuits and do nothing but drink Vodka, and I would think every British person had horse teeth.  Rather than that, I do not give into ignorance.  Yes I am quite privileged to have the opportunities to travel all around Europe and witness for myself, but even without this, I would not be so quick to judge millions of people with five words.


Back on topic. 

Your words are truely american: everyone can work his way up.

Yes because it is true, at least, in the States.  If you are willing to work, and bust your ass, you will eventually be able to build something for yourself.  It happens all the time, all over the place in America.  Since I'm in college and still living with mommy,  I'll share a bit of my brother's story.  He started working when he was 16, still going to highschool, moved out when he was 18, got his girlfriend pregnant and married her.  Ten years later he's still married, has two kids, is the number 1 aircraft mechanic in the U.S. Coast Guard, and will soon be able to retire from the military and go to work for an airline making six figures.  No he's not in the top 5% but he is successful, has a family, a nice living, and is a productive person.  Considering he had nothing going for him other than the willingness to work and take responsibility, I'd say he's done quite well.


I don't mean to answer for Pappy (Rumblood), I just wanted to share my little story.

The price is to hurt the pride of dead people, and to sell the assets of their inheritors to those with merit.

I believe you may be basing this view too much off of the "Duck Faced Daughters".  If this man had a competent child, and passed the company on to him to run, what would be the issue?  I kind of think this discussion would not have been had if that were the case.

Yes, in some instances, money is blown by the offspring of a corporate giant, or a successor fails to meet the expectations that are bestowed to him/her, but this is the way of the world.  I simply don't believe stripping the right to choose a successor to one's business simply because it is worth too much to risk it falling, is the way to go.  Even if the money from it would go to everyone, it's not theirs, and the owner didn't choose this. I can understand how it could benefit society as a whole, making things easier for most, trying to make everyone more or less "equal", but what kind of impact could it have on society's ambition as a whole?

Just my opinions.   

[Thomek]

If this man had a competent child, he/she would have a head start of 50mill and would do very good in society anyway. If he is very competent, he would have better chances than his father to build a new business, because of lower taxation and more opportunity. He will be fine, and has  a chance to make HIS OWN money, not just inherit an 11Billion conglomerate.

It's not about everyone becoming equal at all..  You have to stop thinking everything is socialism! These stale fronts and kneejerk reactions on BOTH sides are just hindering real progress. The idea is about oiling the gears of a meritocracy. People that inherit vast assets also inherit responsibility, which they never had to prove ANY merit to get. Simple because they came out of the right vagina, should not  guarantee them that responsibility. It is similar to a kind of Monarchy or North Korea... We don't need monarchies in todays world. They are shown to be less efficient than meritocracies and just leads to nepotism and corruption.

It's about taxing those who through their lives have paid way less taxes than ordinary people. And taxing ordinary people less as a consequence. Giving them more freedom and opportunity to follow their american dream. At the same time ensuring that companies are owned and run by people who have earned it. Thus hopefully creating better companies.

This idea would likely hit something like 0.3% of the population directly. Trust me, you, and probably no one you know, will have to worry about it. And those who do will still have a very good head start to their careers..

IMO Inheritance tax is the best tax there is.. Even from myself I can see that it's not healthy to inherit too much. It's not exactly motivating to know that somewhere down the line, I don't have to worry about money, just because my parents did some lucky real estate decisions.. Even I, from my middle middle class background, find it worryingly comfortable to know that no matter how much I fuck up, I will be fine. I would probably work way harder if I had known there was no choice.
(BTW a good argument to keep wages down and the middle class hungry! lol.. )

[Rumblood]

I already said there are "bad" jobs and someone is going to work them. Always and forever. But it doesn't have to be a permanent position. For the industrious it is a transitory state as they work their way up to the better tier professions.
And I don't buy your "Oh woe is the poor, they are mindz controlled by the evil advertisers!" Bullshit on the that. They are complacent, pure and simple. They are happy enough with what they have, that they don't care enough to get out of the line of lemmings, because being a lemming today isn't really all the bad compared to a hundred years ago. They are like drug addicts sucking on the pipe of consumerism. Neither deserve much pity.

As for this?

In america you can start up your snack bar, get the meat from wild dogs and rats and let your children work instead of sending them to school without much problem?

Get the fuck out of here. You clearly don't have any idea about our health departments, FDA, Constables, and child welfare departments. If you truly think this is how people get ahead in America, you have no clue of the regulations we have over here. Only we don't do one thing that Europe appears to do. If you are a legal immigrant, the sky is the limit. Almost no significant restrictions except obey the law (well you can't become President so sue us). From what we hear over here, Europe despises their immigrants and treat them like scum to scrape from their shoes, while I think much of America's prosperity has come from our immigrants, their willingness to integrate themselves into our society, and our willingness to accept them. The most obvious thing is this; you may have great food, but you will never touch America because you have great food from your country, while we have great food from nearly every country. You can't touch this.

[Eugen]

Hi Rumblood. I could also have asked politely how things work at your edge of the world ... but ... provoking answers is much more enteraining. Thanks for your reply though. Seems reasonable. Point for you.

Ding

[Kalam]

An interesting study was recently released on the subject. It doesn't come down on one 'side', and there's information that may surprise.

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/

[Lt_Anders]

An interesting study was recently released on the subject. It doesn't come down on one 'side', and there's information that may surprise.

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/

Is this in reference to anything? By your statement, I'm confused as to what you ment by "side" while showing that data.

[Kalam]

Is this in reference to anything? By your statement, I'm confused as to what you ment by "side" while showing that data.

Just income equality. The 'sides' here would be those who blame it on the individuals or the collective, essentially, in the question 'are people poor because of themselves, or because of a lack of opportunity?'

I think.

[Kafein]

You USA people and your fucking South