Internal bow balance

[Kafein]

I don't agree and is the main reason I get irritated over the missile speed reductions. For long range, your missile will be coming in at an arc from above. It actually gives you a better chance at getting a head shot. Plus, I love to pick out a xbow or archer who is standing on a hill on the other side of the map blithely spamming arrows into the melee scrum, when suddenly they find themselves a target and can't figure out from where. Archers who can take out the enemy cavalry from long range and the enemy ranged from long range end up with more consistent multipliers than those who don't. In fact, I would love to see the % of rounds played with a multiplier (and which multiplier) than any K/D ratio on the webpage. That might actually get some people to use real team tactics.

Well, skill has to exist somewhere. The cone of fire mechanic cannot be compensated with skill, while low missile speeds can. To me that's all there is to it. Of course, if the devs manage to modifiy the way the COF evolves in a way that makes timing shots more important, why not do that instead. But I don't see that happening in the near future.

[Rumblood]

Well, skill has to exist somewhere. The cone of fire mechanic cannot be compensated with skill, while low missile speeds can. To me that's all there is to it. Of course, if the devs manage to modifiy the way the COF evolves in a way that makes timing shots more important, why not do that instead. But I don't see that happening in the near future.

You really don't play an archer do you?

Long range shots can only be done through skill. Even with the current arrow speed, you still have to aim about an inch or so above your target, without being able to see where your shots are landing (unless you are a goddamned pink arrow plus the size of throwing lance cheater), and if you are off by 1/32 of an inch (2.5 cm and if off by an 0.08 of a cm) you will miss, and that is for a stationary target. If your target is moving, you then have to also calculate their speed, adjust to the left or right by up to an inch or more, more especially if your target is a horse, as well as aim an inch or so above the target depending upon the actual distance, and then hope they don't change direction. And if your CoF isn't close to pinpoint by having 190 wpf or more, luck is also in play. That means a dedicated archer is better than one that isn't because it is about skill in making the shots. Even with medium shots you still have to adjust for the drop of the arrow, and with shorter range you still have to adjust for speed of the target, especially when aiming for the much smaller head target. If someone is standing still? Sure, not as hard, but they deserve what they get for standing in one spot and making themselves an easy target.

As for low missile speed being required for skill? Actually low missile speed adds an additional layer of luck because then it is elementary for any melee or even a horse (by rearing or just turning) to avoid a missile. It is far too easy.
Look, I hate to break out the "you just suck at it" card on you, but as much as you complain about the current missile speed making it impossible to dodge a missile, that is the only conclusion that I can make. Even using the nomad with the highest current missile speed, there are many players who can both dodge the arrow and still advance towards an archer at short range. Why? They don't wait to see the missile before they are reacting to the archers aim.
Now I will concede that the ones who can do it consistently generally have a good athletic and thus a balanced or agility build. But if strength builds can't do it, then so what????. I am damned tired of strength builds who want to have the highest amount of armor, swing as fast as an agility build that has more wpf, run down anyone with more athletics then they have, and dodge arrows like a D&D monk. Lowering missile speed will just be more pandering to these tincan wanttohaveitalls, and that is just plain bullshit. 

[Templar_Steevee]

About missile speed on those small pew-pew bows it's too high IMO. Max arrow speed should be one we have on rus bow atm.
Missile speed on x-bows should be nerfed also, but i were not playing x-bow for a long time and can be wrong about them.

Why i think that? Because it's big compound bow with great power, and thing that paul said that smaller bows were using lighter arrows is not fitting to world we have in c-rpg.
Lighter arrows would just bounce off from mail with padded cloth under it. 

[Kafein]

You really don't play an archer do you?

Long range shots can only be done through skill. Even with the current arrow speed, you still have to aim about an inch or so above your target, without being able to see where your shots are landing (unless you are a goddamned pink arrow plus the size of throwing lance cheater), and if you are off by 1/32 of an inch (2.5 cm and if off by an 0.08 of a cm) you will miss, and that is for a stationary target. If your target is moving, you then have to also calculate their speed, adjust to the left or right by up to an inch or more, more especially if your target is a horse, as well as aim an inch or so above the target depending upon the actual distance, and then hope they don't change direction. And if your CoF isn't close to pinpoint by having 190 wpf or more, luck is also in play. That means a dedicated archer is better than one that isn't because it is about skill in making the shots. Even with medium shots you still have to adjust for the drop of the arrow, and with shorter range you still have to adjust for speed of the target, especially when aiming for the much smaller head target. If someone is standing still? Sure, not as hard, but they deserve what they get for standing in one spot and making themselves an easy target.

As for low missile speed being required for skill? Actually low missile speed adds an additional layer of luck because then it is elementary for any melee or even a horse (by rearing or just turning) to avoid a missile. It is far too easy.
Look, I hate to break out the "you just suck at it" card on you, but as much as you complain about the current missile speed making it impossible to dodge a missile, that is the only conclusion that I can make. Even using the nomad with the highest current missile speed, there are many players who can both dodge the arrow and still advance towards an archer at short range. Why? They don't wait to see the missile before they are reacting to the archers aim.
Now I will concede that the ones who can do it consistently generally have a good athletic and thus a balanced or agility build. But if strength builds can't do it, then so what????. I am damned tired of strength builds who want to have the highest amount of armor, swing as fast as an agility build that has more wpf, run down anyone with more athletics then they have, and dodge arrows like a D&D monk. Lowering missile speed will just be more pandering to these tincan wanttohaveitalls, and that is just plain bullshit. 

And right now is it far too easy to evade a correctly aimed missile from the moment it is shot? I beg to differ. At which distance does that even become possible? My argument is that CoF mechanics are random while projectile speed isn't. You say it's "random" because it depends on the actions of the guy you are shooting at, but that's exactly the point. A game where if you shoot correctly there is no way to evade your shot, is simply not skill based. Or rather, not fun for those that hit a wall in their skill progression because no amount of skill allows them to do that. Just as in melee combat, when you attack your opponent doesn't randomly block, that's his input, and that's what makes melee combat so dynamic.

I don't wish to directly nerf archery here, as I believe those slower missiles should be traded for something else, like a tighter CoF.

[Ronin]

After making some more tests with high PD builds, I agree that I "overdid" the power of reducing low tier bows a bit. High PD gives good accuracy + better missile speed, and they are more useful with high requirement bows (8 pd with 3 req bow, will not gain the damage bonus of 8 pd).

Maybe somewhere in between will do better?

[Rumblood]

And right now is it far too easy to evade a correctly aimed missile from the moment it is shot? I beg to differ. At which distance does that even become possible? My argument is that CoF mechanics are random while projectile speed isn't. You say it's "random" because it depends on the actions of the guy you are shooting at, but that's exactly the point. A game where if you shoot correctly there is no way to evade your shot, is simply not skill based. Or rather, not fun for those that hit a wall in their skill progression because no amount of skill allows them to do that. Just as in melee combat, when you attack your opponent doesn't randomly block, that's his input, and that's what makes melee combat so dynamic.

I don't wish to directly nerf archery here, as I believe those slower missiles should be traded for something else, like a tighter CoF.

You need to look at yourself, not the missile speed, because many players are doing what you claim is impossible. To boot, I can already do a 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, 3 before a missile hits at long range. You really think it should take longer?? You should be able to anticipate where a player will be in 4 seconds? 5 seconds? 6? To get a tighter CoF is elementary, invest the WPF for it.

[Templar_Steevee]

A longest aimed shots i made in this game arrow were flying little bit longer than 3 sec. dmg on such huge distance (While using long bow) is almost not worth to do it, it's better to shoot something closer

Kafein got some point in nerfing missile speed, but under one condition: do not touch missile speed for 5 and 6 pd bows.
Smaller bows are good enought because of their accuracy (on nomad and tatar i have pinpoint one), there's no need for them to have such huge missile speed

[Kafein]

You need to look at yourself, not the missile speed, because many players are doing what you claim is impossible. To boot, I can already do a 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, 3 before a missile hits at long range. You really think it should take longer?? You should be able to anticipate where a player will be in 4 seconds? 5 seconds? 6? To get a tighter CoF is elementary, invest the WPF for it.

I don't think we want to balance this for the same distances. If you shoot someone and hit two seconds later that's already very far away and on some maps further than the distance at which people you shoot at will spot you if you don't expose yourself too much (dark backgrounds etc.). If you shoot me from those distances I bet I can easily dodge as well. What I'm talking about is the distances at which dodging correctly aimed bodyshots from the instant of release is currently impossible which I'd say is roughly below 30 meters depending on the bow. In siege mode, that's basically all the arrows being shot. In those situations you can't counter skill with skill. If the archer is bad and you dodge, he will miss, sometimes, depending on rng. If the archer is good he will not miss, dodging or not. Your own dodging will only matter to the bad archers that can't point & click, not to the skilled ones. And I say point an click because at that kind of range there is only minimal leading. If it wasn't point & click then it would be possible (not necessarily something that everybody would do) to outplay a skilled archer.


Anyway the latest patch has changes in the damage department against armor, let's see how it play out.