Author Topic: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.  (Read 802 times)

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Offline Johammeth

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Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« on: October 21, 2014, 08:39:50 am »
+6
This is a longer version of a post I started to make in the 4.0 thread (full disclosure: I just got my STR HT up to level)

I think most people are generally satisfied with the nerfs to HorseRanged (HR players being the obvious exception). “Douchey delay-cav who circle just out of range firing projectiles with impunity and farming valor while ignoring their own team” are far less effective, so Mission Accomplished.

I would like to present another perspective:

The nerfs did not address the specific problems with HR (the aforementioned playstyle), and in fact re-enforce the idea that the class should be played as passively and selfishly as possible.

-------------------------------

There is nothing inherently wrong/broken/toxic/*gamer jargon* with being Horse Ranged, but there IS something inherently wrong with the play patterns that HR are encouraged to follow. Horse Ranged traditionally excels at Passive, Effortless Non-Interactive Stupidity (henceforth P.E.N.I.S.) play. I describe this playstyle as “when player A can affect player B, and player B has little or no recourse against the action.” The nerfs (wrongly) carpet bombed HR in general, when they should have instead targeted HR's real problem (their incredible capacity for P.E.N.I.S. Play).

How did the recent nerfs affect HR's relationship with P.E.N.I.S. Play?  The 15 damage cap (any static cap, for that matter) creates a very specific restriction on how you should build, itemize, and play your HR.

Since any damage over 15 is wasted...

-Players are encouraged to build for mobility: You should build only enough PT/PD/xbow to do 15 real damage, and dump the rest into riding.
-Players are encouraged to itemize for a high volume of low damage shots (eg: If throwing darts @32 ammo do the same damage per hit as throwing lances @6, there's no question of which weapon you must use): Spam out a great quantity of shots, since the hard cap ensures that there are no “quality” shots. If it takes you 6 minutes to blow through your ammo, everyone in *dead*chat will just have to wait.
-Players are encouraged to play as passively as possible: Any bit of speed you have that pushes your  damage over 15 is wasted. While you get no benefit from this extra speed, the speed exposes you to significant danger (the risk of coming into the enemy's range, and taking full speed-bonus damage from them). Charging towards the enemy in order to hit them (thus creating an interactive play experience for both parties) is objectively stupid. Work up just enough speed to push your real damage to 15 (perhaps by circling around your opponent?) and proceed with P.E.N.I.S. Play.

In effect, the HR nerfs force HR to play mobility focused delay-spam-bots who have no reason to do anything but casually lope around the outskirts of a fight. The nerfs are successful in their ham-fisted severity, but serve only to re-enforce—rather than correct—Horse Ranged's fundamental problems.

---

I need to get back to work, but here's a sketch of what I'd like to see HR become, whenever changes eventually come around: High-risk high-reward driveby/charge specialists whose damage is closely tied to how close and how fast they attack the enemy.

-Lower base damage (the new % reduction seems the right way to go) without an arbitrary static cap.
-Increased speed bonus damage (so charging straight towards the enemy will negate the above damage reduction, which P.E.N.I.S. Players still suffer).
-(I'm a bit fuzzy on the mechanics at play here) HR projectiles lose their speed/speed bonus more quickly over medium/long distance. (Isn't there some kind of effect where projectiles lose speed over distance? Or am I just making that up? Either way, HR wishing to get the most out of their builds would have to charge straight into the teeth of the enemy).


---

I'm assuming that further HR changes will be back-burnered until the Revival patch has had enough time to “breathe,” but I think it's worth starting the conversation.

Your thoughts, comments, and nudes are much appreciated.


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Offline WarLord

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 12:58:01 pm »
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No tl;dr version?

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Offline Teeth

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 01:05:30 pm »
+1
There is nothing inherently wrong/broken/toxic/*gamer jargon* with being Horse Ranged
I disagree with this, I honestly think horse ranged is terrible game design that nobody would ever approve of if it wasn't for the historical precedent.

That said, the 15 damage cap is very unelegant and perhaps lowered base damage would be a lot better.

Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2014, 08:26:01 am »
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I disagree with this, I honestly think horse ranged is terrible game design that nobody would ever approve of if it wasn't for the historical precedent.

That said, the 15 damage cap is very unelegant and perhaps lowered base damage would be a lot better.

They added the lowered base damage as well.
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Offline Viriathus

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2014, 11:16:47 am »
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"venha o diabo e escolha" in my language this saying means "let the devil come and choose for itself cause both options are crap". Tbh i dont know wich is worst, a few HA on EU1 or a full server of 2h unblockable spammers on EU2.

Offline Bjord

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2014, 11:18:37 am »
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>P.E.N.I.S

Lost my shit. :lol:
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Offline Utrakil

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 11:40:43 am »
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I never understand why the easiest way to make HA usefull but not anoying was never concidered.
make arrows unlootable and only allow 1 quiver on horseback. Reinstall the old HR mechanics. This way the HR could be effective on some choosen objects but will not be able to delay. They will have to hybridize as meleecav which is a counterabe class.
But easy solutions are not always apreciated.
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Offline agweber

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 07:26:46 pm »
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make arrows unlootable and only allow 1 quiver on horseback

I don't know about limiting the 1 quiver on horseback, but frankly picking arrows off of the ground from horseback is a bit silly. Actually, picking up most weapons from horseback is silly, but I'd be okay with that staying. Just remove the looting of arrows.

Offline Johammeth

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Re: Let's talk about Horse Ranged.
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2014, 02:47:31 pm »
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I disagree with this, I honestly think horse ranged is terrible game design that nobody would ever approve of if it wasn't for the historical precedent.

That said, the 15 damage cap is very unelegant and perhaps lowered base damage would be a lot better.

I think that there IS a legitimate place for mounted range in the game, but I agree that HR *as implemented* is antithetical to MnB's design objectives (short version: directional attacking/blocking--the defining characteristic of the game--makes sure that every fight is an interactive experience between two players who each have the opportunity to make significant/meaningful decisions. Without interactivity, there can be no risk/reward dynamic).

When faced with kiting HR delay-cav (the objectively correct way to play the class after 4.0), your entire decision tree is reduced to variations of "hope he doesn't hit you." 'Fighting' HR is a thoroughly non-interactive experience (only one player actually gets to do stuff) in a game which is built upon the principle of interactive play. The contradiction between MnB's core mechanics and HR gameplay is quite jarring; the game is geared towards interactive play, and HR is (quite literally) headed in the opposite direction.

(Before it comes up, I count foot-ranged as interactive because their lack of mobility after 4.0 means you have a reasonable chance of interacting with their butthole if they blow their chance at killing you from range.)

I think that overhauling HR to rely on speed-towards/distance-from target for damage would force them to commit more heavily to an attack, and thus give the defender a range of active responses (try to chop the horse? try to scare him off with a pointy stick? etc.) Sure, the HR might still hit you (and ACTUALLY hit you for real this time), but if he misjudges the situation, you get a free kill. I think that these kinds of changes would make HR play a hell of a lot more fun for everybody involved, since it forces in interactive play pattern which means a real risk-reward dynamic.





...either that or I'm still drunk on how fun it is to play STR HT and make manly-man head on charges.



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