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Author Topic: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn  (Read 2154 times)

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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2012, 04:30:58 pm »
0
Still think your idea beats the current system though, would just need a few edits to fix the issues with it.
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2012, 11:25:18 pm »
0
I don't think it's a problem on the EU servers, but NA_3 turns into a disgusting unplayable lagfest in large battles. This would certainly help with that, I reckon.

Or, you know, you could open up donations specifically for a new NA_3. All amerifats don't spend their paychecks on McDonalds days after receiving them.

Just most of us.
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Offline Spa_geh_tea

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2012, 06:28:06 pm »
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I like the reinforcement idea, but spawn raping would be to easy. Perhaps the commander has control over when to impart reinforcement at key moments?

I don't play battle because:
 -You sit and wait for minutes after death (I play the game to play, not sit eat cheetos and watch)
-You have to Chase every asshole with 9 athletics or a horse to win
-It slows down the engagements between players because of fear of death (boring to play when the first 3 minutes of the battle is manuevering)

So, no. It's a crappy idea and would make strat battles less appealing.

It would buff archery inadvertainly because archers have a higher survivabilty in strategus. So, everyone and their mother will be an archer.

Offline Butan

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2012, 06:28:30 am »
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Not sure how this would work with current flag system and siege equipment !

Offline Teeth

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2012, 12:36:40 pm »
+2
I don't play battle because:
 -You sit and wait for minutes after death (I play the game to play, not sit eat cheetos and watch)
-It slows down the engagements between players because of fear of death (boring to play when the first 3 minutes of the battle is manuevering)
Exactly what makes battle great. Good players survive, pick their fights, take calculated risks because if they die they have to wait. It adds a huge layer of skill. If you are a good player, you usually don't spend that much time waiting. I presume you play siege then, but with either the 30 second respawn timer or otherwise having to walk to the castle again with each death, I think I would not spend that much less time waiting in siege as in battle. This fear of death is exactly why strategy and tactics will play a bigger role, because now who cares if some people die, they will be back in a second. Current strategus is just deathmatch and your hulk smash mentality might appreciate that, but I know a lot of people would like something deeper.

It would buff archery inadvertainly because archers have a higher survivabilty in strategus. So, everyone and their mother will be an archer.
Wrong, archers have higher survivability in current strategus because of the respawns. The melee line always respawns to protect them, while they are comfortably behind it. If respawns are taken away, the melee line might get its ass beat and archers will be vulnerable and die. Just like in regular battle. Or because taking out ranged means dealing a heavy blow to the enemy, some mass cav attacks or clever tactical moves might be aimed especially at the ranged to wipe them out.

Not sure how this would work with current flag system and siege equipment !
When thinking of a different strategus battle system, or new ideas in general, it is important to forget everything you know and think about it from the ground up. Otherwise you will never get a good new approach cause you are bogged down with current mechanics that might not transfer over well.

Offline Torben

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2012, 01:36:25 pm »
+1
teeth is doing a great job in saying just about anything I would respond,  cheers.

Personally,  I think it is the single important feature to create a permadeath situation for a given round to make real tactical gameplay viable.

Everyone remember this is especially about battles,  as sieges would need some other solution to work.
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2012, 02:09:41 pm »
+4
Turn Strategus battles into Battle mode and you will drive 99 percent of the playerbase that still has fun in the game away because Battle gameplay is probably the main reason the game has always been rather unpopular (its terrible except for niche tryhard nerds).  Its just gameplay stolen from a mod like Counter-Strike that is horribly balanced for a game of this sort but lazily slapped on the engine for turkish profit. 

Bravely lead a charge as infantry, get headshotted or couched, enjoy not playing for 1-2 hours.  Even 5 minutes of not playing because of an early death like that in Battle I've seen cause gen 10+ players to uninstall the game and not come back, because of how unfun it is.

Every strat battle is a siege by the way.  Open plains, defense camps their spawn, offense takes tons of casualties just closing the distance.  I'm pretty confident most people posting here in support of perma death in Strat battles do not play Strategus and are speaking as a vocal, slim minority.

The moment I die in the first minutes of an hour+ long Strategus battle and couldn't respawn I would immediately stop putting up with the bullshit of Strategus map mechanics and diplomacy, because there is a lot of effort involved to get to what is actually fun, and changes of this nature would make it nothing but sadistic "hardcore gamer" bullshit in a slapped on lazy way that would never be worth playing for the majority of people.

The fun part of Strat battles is territory control, maneuver, getting ranged in a good spot, using cav to disrupt enemy maneuver or ranged, coordinating two flanks of an army to pincer, cav cutting down routed players after a failed charge.  None of this shit exists in Battle mode because it is just blobs of heavy armor/strength builds clashing and people instantly dying, along with kiting ranged and cav being solo heroes that can avoid most danger.

These "tactics" people wishfully long for happen constantly in the Strategus battle system, the only problem is how difficult it is for offense to hold ground due to close proximity of defense spawn flags to fighting, unless there is a big gear discrepancy.  This matters less for Town maps due to the sprawling nature of them, and are the perfect example of Strat gameplay working wonderfully and being a massive improvement over anything else in cRPG.

The main focus of Strategus right now should be fixing all of the horrible bugs, like walls that never come down, construction sites that don't work, catapults that don't fire, siege towers that don't go down, that kills the game more than any crying about "TDM NOOB GAMES" by a handful of tryhards.  Also add battering rams, nerf pikes/longspears against ladders (or raise ladder hp) and maybe a few other things.

To make field battles more interesting you could spread out spawn flags more, so instead of defense having 1 small hill or 10 yards of flags, have the spawns stretch across the map, and have penalties happen to defense spawn rates/ticket drain or something if they don't keep most of their flags up.  This would allow attackers to attack a flank and set up forward spawns and create more intense gameplay.  Just add more ways to implement "territory control" to the game as that's the best part.  Why I pimp out "conquest mode" so much as it would be a great fit to cRPG compared to Siege or Battle.

Basically you should focus on the strengths of Strategus battles as they are, and identify/acknowledge the weaknesses of Battle which people are trolling in here about being "great."  The "fear of death" isn't fun, it means kiting, strength, armor, running away, and people quitting the game.
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Offline Torben

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2012, 02:17:59 pm »
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(click to show/hide)

you seem to neither have understood my proposal nor ever attended an organized battle.
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2012, 02:52:39 pm »
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you seem to neither have understood my proposal nor ever attended an organized battle.

I just think you have bad ideas and the proposed implementations would completely kill an already dwindling game.  Nothing personal  :D
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Offline Torben

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2012, 03:40:23 pm »
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I just think you have bad ideas and the proposed implementations would completely kill an already dwindling game.  Nothing personal  :D

the very absolute and aggressive way you sell your own opinions and dismiss others sucks,  but ofc i dont take that personal.
kinda weak,  still think the mod gets to you too much.  but its better than it used to be,  so there we go : )


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Offline Teeth

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2012, 06:51:16 pm »
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The fun part of Strat battles is territory control, maneuver, getting ranged in a good spot, using cav to disrupt enemy maneuver or ranged, coordinating two flanks of an army to pincer, cav cutting down routed players after a failed charge.  None of this shit exists in Battle mode because it is just blobs of heavy armor/strength builds clashing and people instantly dying, along with kiting ranged and cav being solo heroes that can avoid most danger.
rofl

Offline Spa_geh_tea

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2012, 06:46:54 pm »
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rofl

So, its settled strat and siege are more fun and engageing than battle mode.

Offline Uumdi

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Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2012, 07:45:37 pm »
+1
I've thought about similar solutions too.  I think the problems lie in the bugs and the tedious nature of sieges.  I get that castles were defensible locations, but I think the stage should already be set for the battle to take place.


Ladders and siege equipment are just too poorly implemented to be the cornerstone of the entire campaign.  Village fights were always a blast, but aren't as key anymore.  We don't play this game to organize a dozen people who can 'drop good ladders'.  Its not a negligible detail that we should just simply deal with - its a glaringly terrible system.  Siege equipment has been removed from battle, its been removed from siege: all for good reason too.


I appreciate both Torben's suggestion and Smoothrich's response, because they both have merit.  Respawns are goofy.  They're necessary, since to make it realistic, you'd literally need 5000 players all with only 1 life.  We have 50-200, and thousands of tickets to blow through, and respawns are a somewhat decent way to simulate being pushed back into certain areas, and choking off other areas.

I think they should be more like siege server sieges.  I don't think its "dumbing it down" at all.  Though it'd be a much more visceral experience, we give far too much credit to the defective siege system that's in place now.  If gen 10+ players are turned off by it, imagine how alienated new players must feel.
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