Author Topic: Archery wpf rework  (Read 668 times)

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Offline Tydeus

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Archery wpf rework
« on: November 15, 2012, 09:14:17 pm »
+3
I have never much liked changes that remove or directly harm preexisting playstyles, which both of the previous two archer mechanics changes have done. Whatever solution we choose, it has to be able to be done without WSE, which is a restriction my solution adheres to. While they may have slightly solved one problem, they have both negatively affected other play styles while leaving low pd archer builds useless, as well as not addressing the fact that getting athletics is worth more than anything else you could do with your left over points. Why limit the amount of effective builds needlessly? Why does a 3 PD build have to be utterly useless? Why can't specialization actually be rewarding?

How about, instead of penalizing archers for having athletics by stealing their wpf, we reduce the PD wpf penalty they already get, for every point of athletics they have below their PD/WM(depending on whichever is highest)?

Something along the lines of this:
1. wpf penalty= 14*PD -(MAX(MAX(PD,WM) - athletics,0)*8
2. wpf penalty= (14*PD -1.4^PD) -(MAX(MAX(PD,WM) - athletics,0)*6

For those of you unaware, the two MAX() functions simply keep people from actually ending up with a penalty for having athletics as their highest skill. Option 2 is a combination of the current, which helps to keep high pd builds from being useless. Option 2 keeps the wpf disparity between 10 and 6 PD exactly the same as it currently is.

Here's what it looks like.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwUPthpt639-U0xsQktaS2J4dlU

There are a few problems that I see this causing. First, notice that the 3 PD archer has more effective wpf than what his base was? Bit of an issue, but can be fixed by further adjusting the formula. Second, everyone ends up with more wpf than before, which means weapon stats will need to be nerfed slightly for compensation(otherwise this is a massive archer buff for every single archer) or we can adjust the formula further. The point of this post, is to state that it's easily possible to get far better inner balance for archery and that if you want to kite, you should be able to kite, but know that you will not hit as hard/be as accurate as an archer who chose to have a specialized build. Your kiting build won't end up nerfed like with the old athletics change. You aren't penalized at all for having athletics, only specialization has meaningful benefits now.


Alternatively, and to a global effect, change the wpf formula for everyone.

(click to show/hide)

Edit: Fixed the URL requiring permission.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:00:10 pm by Tydeus »
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Offline Xol!

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Re: Archery wpf rework
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 10:05:55 pm »
0
tl;dr: Revert archer kiting nerfs, nerf bow damage/speed, buff archery wpf for taking more powerdraw than athletics?

13 Power Draw 0 Athletics here I come!
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Offline BlueKnight

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Re: Archery wpf rework
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 11:21:54 pm »
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It would hit builds of so many archers that free respec would be a must for them. Too much messing with archers will make them strange. actually before the last patch I kinda liked it like it was. Maybe 1 less damage on loomed archer's gear would be ok, that's all but no, let's bring a patch messing everything up and causing panic among players.
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Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Archery wpf rework
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2012, 11:57:58 pm »
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I thought the way archery works right now, athletics doesnt effect wpf and that they just raised the weight of arrows?

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Archery wpf rework
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 12:23:31 am »
+1
Currently Athletics doesn't affect wpf, but the amount of PD you have does. This is the penalty I'm talking about reducing based on how low your athletics is, in comparison to other stats.

To blue knight: This wouldn't "hit" any archer. Without changing anything aside from what is in this thread, it would be a buff to every single person that holds a bow, period. This is why I suggested slightly lowering bow stats, as everyone across the board will have more wpf. Maybe by comparison to other archers your build would become somewhat less satisfactory than it is now (though I find that a hard argument to make), but it isn't harmful to any playstyle or build that an archer would want to have.

You want to hybrid with melee and have athletics? Cool, you can do that. You want to go 18/21 and kite forever? You can. You want 18/24 and to hit hard while maintaining maximum accuracy for sacrificing athletics? You can. Or how about something we haven't seen in about two years, 4 PD archers?

I knew I should have just kept this as an irc conversation rather than posting this for the community to weigh in.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:41:59 am by Tydeus »
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Offline Tomas

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Re: Archery wpf rework
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 03:59:54 pm »
+1
I disagree with this idea

1) It is a buff to horse archers who have no need of athletics
2) I think a nerf to kiting archers in general is not needed and just dumbs down cRPG even further removing yet another layer of tactics from the game.

The real problem with cRPG is kiting at the end of rounds when most people are dead and are forced to watch 2 minutes of 1 archer endlessly running away.  But this isn't just archers, it is horse archers and horse xbows as well and this idea does nothing to combat them.

A much better solution would be to simply restrict all players to 1 quiver only.   This allows kiting earlier in rounds which keeps the tactical element of cRPG but makes it very hard to kite at the end of rounds since you will almost certainly be out of ammo. 

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Archery wpf rework
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 05:00:43 pm »
0
I disagree with this idea

1) It is a buff to horse archers who have no need of athletics
2) I think a nerf to kiting archers in general is not needed and just dumbs down cRPG even further removing yet another layer of tactics from the game.

The real problem with cRPG is kiting at the end of rounds when most people are dead and are forced to watch 2 minutes of 1 archer endlessly running away.  But this isn't just archers, it is horse archers and horse xbows as well and this idea does nothing to combat them.

A much better solution would be to simply restrict all players to 1 quiver only.   This allows kiting earlier in rounds which keeps the tactical element of cRPG but makes it very hard to kite at the end of rounds since you will almost certainly be out of ammo.
Yeah, I mentioned the HA thing two days ago when I posted this idea in irc. It's easy to just drop the PD/WM - athletics *5 thing from the formula if you have HA. The problem with 1 quiver is that it eliminates the entire concept of "dedicated archers". Why is everyone so willing to just eliminate playstyles entirely?
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Offline Aderyn

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Re: Archery wpf rework
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 09:33:33 pm »
0
I disagree with this idea

1) It is a buff to horse archers who have no need of athletics
2) I think a nerf to kiting archers in general is not needed and just dumbs down cRPG even further removing yet another layer of tactics from the game.

The real problem with cRPG is kiting at the end of rounds when most people are dead and are forced to watch 2 minutes of 1 archer endlessly running away.  But this isn't just archers, it is horse archers and horse xbows as well and this idea does nothing to combat them.

A much better solution would be to simply restrict all players to 1 quiver only.   This allows kiting earlier in rounds which keeps the tactical element of cRPG but makes it very hard to kite at the end of rounds since you will almost certainly be out of ammo.

If you restrict archers to 1 quiver you better buff the damage hardcore. :|
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