Quite sad... Food Poverty in Greece.

[Arathian]

How did you work that out?

Let's see:

-high taxes
-endless regulation chocking the industry
-extensive welfare
-central industries are all state controlled


I could go on and on and on about why Greece is socialist and NOT capitalist, but I am sure you get the point.

[Kafein]

I'm really sorry for the greek situation, and i'm really worried about situation at home and eu future.
I think EU was just a bluff politically, and the financial markets got it. Eu "help" to greece sounds more a punishment then an help for example.
Now or we change and have better rules, more choesion and development for all, or we'll all sink.
Germany should also grow up and stop acting like masters of europe, eu wasn't made for their benefit only, nor countries like greece spain italy can't magically turn into germany just because merkel wants it. The Sarkomerkel axis approach the the chrisis was horrible with the austerity-recession-more austerity suicidal circle, now greece it's out of debt market, spain and italy have to finance themself at horrible rates while germany have almost negative values lol.
Let's make togheter some fucking eurobonds, open an EU rating agency quickly, in short do something to show Europe really exist and doesn't let entire nations starve to death and i'm sure Eu will go out from this credit crysis.

The choice only exists between austerity and growth through endebtment. During the 70's crisis most western countries practised loldevaluation and lolletsbuildthings which actually ruined their finances and forced them to pay humongous interest money. Most of these states are still not done with their debt today. Enterprises pushed by artificial government spending wouldn't be profitable without it and as such are not sustainable. That's paper growth.

Decreasing the debt and reducing the interest expenses of the state, that allows much larger stimulus to be done later and in a much safer and balanced way, such as reducing taxes.

[isatis]

Greek is a socialist country that had capitalist dream

[Sharky]

The choice only exists between austerity and growth through endebtment. During the 70's crisis most western countries practised loldevaluation and lolletsbuildthings which actually ruined their finances and forced them to pay humongous interest money. Most of these states are still not done with their debt today. Enterprises pushed by artificial government spending wouldn't be profitable without it and as such are not sustainable. That's paper growth.

Decreasing the debt and reducing the interest expenses of the state, that allows much larger stimulus to be done later and in a much safer and balanced way, such as reducing taxes.

That sounds reasonable, but then why greece is in deep shit with most of europe? Greece did all EU demanded, they cutted everything taxed everything privatized everything and look at them now...
Usa Obama approach seems more effective, first increase in state spendings to encourage the economy, and only after the cuts.

[Arathian]

Greek is a socialist country that had capitalist dream

No, in fact Greece used to be capitalist.

tl;dr recent history:

Greece in the 70's got a pro-US military Junta that liberalized trade, freed the economy etc. This period was called the "Greek economic miracle"  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_economic_miracle) where Greece had the 2nd highest economic growth in the world as well as an impressive HDI growth. Essentially, this period made us first world. We used to produce cars, electicity, technology, refine oil. heck, we used to have THE biggest merchant fleet in the world.

Then the Junta fell by, unfortunately, socialists. They set up a new system based on socialism. Wages were quadripled in almost 4 years, taxes were doubled, regulations and the public sector became endlessly bigger.

Obviously, Greek industry collapsed and the public sector continued to bloat leading the modern situation where Greece is doomed financially.

And that is why I hate nothing more than socialists. Commies are stupid enough for their stupidity to be obvious enough to never be elected but socialists sugar coat their piece of shit ideology and they manage to get elected and ruin nations, including mine.

Seriously, fuck socialism.

[BlindGuy]

No, in fact Greece used to be capitalist.

tl;dr recent history:

Greece in the 70's got a pro-US military Junta that liberalized trade, freed the economy etc. This period was called the "Greek economic miracle"  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_economic_miracle) where Greece had the 2nd highest economic growth in the world as well as an impressive HDI growth. Essentially, this period made us first world. We used to produce cars, electicity, technology, refine oil. heck, we used to have THE biggest merchant fleet in the world.

Then the Junta fell by, unfortunately, socialists. They set up a new system based on socialism. Wages were quadripled in almost 4 years, taxes were doubled, regulations and the public sector became endlessly bigger.

Obviously, Greek industry collapsed and the public sector continued to bloat leading the modern situation where Greece is doomed financially.

And that is why I hate nothing more than socialists. Commies are stupid enough for their stupidity to be obvious enough to never be elected but socialists sugar coat their piece of shit ideology and they manage to get elected and ruin nations, including mine.

Seriously, fuck socialism.

Socialism is based on production, the leader's of Greece may have called themselves socialists, but they did not practise. Forcing a woman to have sex and calling it love doesn't stop it being rape. Dont blame socialism, blame greedy corrupt ppl, the idea is good, the people are weak. Humanity is what fails, not the ideal of wealth for all based on production. The govermental public sector enlargement is the first sign of corruption tbh...

[Arathian]

Socialism is based on production, the leader's of Greece may have called themselves socialists, but they did not practise. Forcing a woman to have sex and calling it love doesn't stop it being rape. Dont blame socialism, blame greedy corrupt ppl, the idea is good, the people are weak. Humanity is what fails, not the ideal of wealth for all based on production. The govermental public sector enlargement is the first sign of corruption tbh...

This arguement is absurd. If something does something EVERY time, then this something is its effect. It does not matter what it proclaims itself to be.

Greece is socialist because the people who lead it called themselves that. That it failed (and it was inevitable that it would) does not change the fact nor does it transfer responsibility to <ideology you don't like>

[Kafein]

That sounds reasonable, but then why greece is in deep shit with most of europe? Greece did all EU demanded, they cutted everything taxed everything privatized everything and look at them now...
Usa Obama approach seems more effective, first increase in state spendings to encourage the economy, and only after the cuts.

Such changes take several years for the effects to be seen, especially with rampant corruption. State encouraged sectors grow when they get the money but as soon as it stops most of the activity will falter just like rushed pastry.

The problem with long term strategies is that they only show how good they are during the mandate of your political adversaries.


I think BlindGuy has the Trotsky syndrom.

Also, you can never ever blame humans for being humans. If your ideas don't apply well, they are bad ideas. I'm sure we'll find plenty of socialistic aliens in space though.

[Beauchamp]

greeks work in a socialistic way but they expect capitalistic payment. its the most socialistic coutry i've ever been to (if i don't count mine before revolution that happen when i was like 9).

[Dach]

Yep socialist which think like capitalist are the worst kind...

They all want free...and don't want to work for the free service... lazy, greedy bastard... 

[Bobthehero]

meanwhile in Québec we are currently under the biggest strike (or boycott as gouv said) because the government want to put the university cost up of 325$ per years for five year... total cost at the end will be around 3000$ per years

Which is still fucking small.