Author Topic: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics  (Read 12718 times)

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Offline ManOfWar

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Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« on: April 25, 2012, 08:20:57 pm »
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Discuss tactics for use in multiplayer matches

To start off,

Are black bear infantry better than white bear? Are the worth the extra 50 gold?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:07:32 pm by ManOfWar »
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 11:34:50 pm »
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yes they are, but all by themselves they won't win you a battle.

i won 36 battles straight with this setup on medium funds:

2xBB(or WB) 1xVBirds(for morale bonus) 2xBB(or WB)
2x yari ki
1x spear levy
1x tosa riflemen
1x armstrong guns

all usually unvetted (WB or BB depend on money)

-------------------------------

what doesn't imo really pay of are high vetted units, because artillery will tear them to pieces before they will even be able to engage into the battle. maybe for cavalry some vetting would make a bit of sense, but overall i prefer just numbers over quality so enemy arty fire doesn't hurt that much.
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Offline ManOfWar

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2012, 11:45:31 pm »
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You use cannon on rice fields and other flat maps of course?
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Offline Butan

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2012, 12:00:49 am »
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what doesn't imo really pay of are high vetted units, because artillery will tear them to pieces before they will even be able to engage into the battle. maybe for cavalry some vetting would make a bit of sense, but overall i prefer just numbers over quality so enemy arty fire doesn't hurt that much.


Vets sux if you use too many of them in a single battle (sometimes I do just to make sure I level up a lot).

But some upgrades are soooooooo powerful that you will certainly lose against some high-level general who unlocked things like improved range, or some special abilities of a particular unit.


My bet would be to have one veteran unit out of ten maximum to still collect xp without being overwhelmed.




When you are dealing with light infantry with 175 range and/or elite infantry with 150 range + deadly accuracy, you have a serious issue on your hand and if you cant deal with them they will butcher you.

When you have them on your side, you just know that if you protect them well enough, you will pulverize any units in front of them.





Now to stay in topic, I have a tactic I love to use everytime I have a good number of cavalry units under my command:


Trying to attack the rear or the flank of the ennemy infantry with your cavalry is easier said than done... The opponent (if they arent stupid) will either put pikes near them or try to intercept them with their own cavalry.

What I often do is use my cavalry sparingly at the beginning of a battle, and only send them when I know I have the upper hand.

Now when the infantry/samurai clashes and they are locked into firing positions and/or moving/not being able to defend themselves fast enough, I often make a mass charge of my cavalry around their flank NOT EVEN TRYING (on purpose) to conceil my intent, but here is the thing: they will undoubtedly intercept it with whatever pike/cav they have and think they are smart and I cant react fast enough.... but now you position ONE of your cavalry unit and make it charges so it attacks and blocks every intercepting squads the opponent sent you, and you use your remaining force with as much freedom and speed as you can and freely charge their flank or even their rear.


This cant work if the main ranged arent locked in battle or they have infantry in reserve ready to repel any angle of attack, and cant work too if they have more than ONE group of intercepting force (they often send them in a pack so its pretty rare to have more than one).



Cavalry are for me the battles changers of shogun 2... infantry is just here to try to have the first shot, making some casualties and focusing squads to lower morale for a rout and making the battlefield more "stable", artillery is useful only when focusing powerful units or particular spot you want to rout (and even then)... but Cavs are, with their speed, the only way to make easy surprises and attack with a powerful angle.

Too bad there isnt much cav units.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 12:03:59 am by Butan »

Offline ManOfWar

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 12:18:16 am »
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Yari Ki is all you need bro and maybe sabre, if you can keep it away from other cav units
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 02:49:22 am »
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imo (i may not be right though) in the case of medium funds battles

- vets and hightier units pay off only if the enemy doesn't have artillery, so i think its a risk to take them.
- artillery is to good unit to be avoided, on 90 percents of maps its a sure pick (i haven't seen any big difference between vetted/unvetted one so i stick with regular armstrongs).
- u can take veterans to lvl them up (i take them too), but i havent assigned any skills to them, so they cost as much as the regular ones. i do it just in the case if i'd need them in large fund battles (in those i believe better units with upgrades could pay off) so i have like lvl7 BBs ready etc.
- 2 yari ki are must as well as 1 unit of skirmishers (or more - personally i could quite imagine a bit more offensive setup with more horses than i have now)

for battles i always start maps defensively, it depends on a player that faces me then...
- overall if enemy doesn't have artillery, he has to charge you sooner or later. in that case just positioning your troops in defensive positions in the wood will win u a battle (if you don't really fuck up). if he doesn't charge, you can just take the dojos under the cover of your artillery with our horsemen, general, spear levys or whatever else....
- if the enemy has artillery than i usually let him come closer with my arty concealed and open fire when his troops are like 100 meters behind the edge of range of my artillery. at that time he is in a position he can't turn back, i usually have my troops hidden so the only thing he can shoot at is my arty (but in woods it can survive half of the map and keep shooting), i ignore shooting his arty or general, its not usually worth it (unless his gen is a sitting duck in the open).
- if the enemy camps and is not moving at all, than its up to me to come up with something. often i reposition my arty and all the units. sometimes i just walk them through woods to optimal positions close to dojos that i then take with spear levys or yari kis or bbs, often with the assistance of my general. i had battles where just moving my men took like 15-20 minutes. but i don't remember i'd ever lost against a camper.

my basic hints would be
- always have 2 plans for current battle depending on what setup the enemy will have (arty / no arty) before the battle ever starts.
- if you can keep your units hidden, do it
- have patience and don't be lazy to reposition your troops
- the best defence is in the wood, your units take reduced casualties there.
- take 1 skirmish unit that has bigger range by default, it gives you additional options (for example when all the shells from arty are depleated, just having skirmisher unit will make enemy charge the same way like artillery does).
- if you're under arty fire, stretch your lines as thin as possible (even under constant fire on medium distance in the open the arty will kill like 100-125 of your men if you have them positioned right) - moneywise it will pay off (i had a battle where i just took dojos normally with my troops, i let the opponent shell me all the time until he ran out of shells and time. he killed a bit over 100 men - quite a joke for expensive vetted armstrongs he was using).
- personally i don't use anything that sometimes doesn't come in handy (aka i don't use debuff retainers, because i don't know what setup the enemy will take, i don't take suppressive fire because sometimes its not needed etc... i just use skills (if ever) that i'm sure i always use - like accuracy for the only lvl 1-2 BBs that i assigned. now i don't have money for them though as my avatar costs to much.
- use debug camera
OOODDIIINVALHALLAAAAAAA on the 20th of April 2011: What I know is that... heh, eh ja how can I explain? ...deh feeling to believe in Odin is right, dat is what I say, ja?!

Offline Butan

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 03:18:27 pm »
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- artillery is to good unit to be avoided, on 90 percents of maps its a sure pick (i haven't seen any big difference between vetted/unvetted one so i stick with regular armstrongs).

In most of my battles, even if I had no arty and my enemy had, even if they reduced to bits (50% dead) my only veteran unit, I would win because cost vs cost, an artillery will do a bit more casualties (if properly used) but will rout way less enemies formations; and when there is noone left to protect them they themselves rout at the sound of a bullet shot in their direction :lol:


Quote
- the best defence is in the wood, your units take reduced casualties there.


I always wondered, do units that are in the woods have the same accuracy or are they themselves hampered by having trees around them ?
If like you seem to say, units inside a forest have more cover AND have the same accuracy, then it is quite a good defense yes :mrgreen:

Offline ManOfWar

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2012, 08:13:54 pm »
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I believe it is the same accuracy, since your opponent is standing right out in the open so yes woods are awesome



Also Tosa Riflemen are my babies, when used correctly they are amazing

But unfortunately from time to time i make a mistake and allow cav to get to them in front of my lines, stupid me
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2012, 11:31:55 am »
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imo if you have arty on relatively open map and enemy doesn't, the enemy can't win if you both have the same skill. its because the one without arty is pushed into the attack and defending in FOTs is just "easier" - like in a way that you're the one that is choosing where the fight will be and if you choose well, than its a no chance for the enemy. not even if he takes some stupid marines that by accident survive in a fighting shape :)

and in woods it works like you have cover (thus reduced casualties) + the same accuracy. it works the same with archers in S2. not to mention the fact that you're not seen so enemy lines almost always approach u in not really optimal direction.

i dunno why, but so many people are somehow afraid to fight in the woods. even most of the melee builds tend to go through the open...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 11:34:34 am by Beauchamp »
OOODDIIINVALHALLAAAAAAA on the 20th of April 2011: What I know is that... heh, eh ja how can I explain? ...deh feeling to believe in Odin is right, dat is what I say, ja?!

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2012, 12:57:30 pm »
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Even if a map is flat if it has woods I rule it out as a bad cannon map because when I am faced by a cannon i put a ton of my men in the woods and maybe send a levy spearmen to go cap the buildings and start the timer




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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2012, 01:38:50 pm »
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Even if a map is flat if it has woods I rule it out as a bad cannon map because when I am faced by a cannon i put a ton of my men in the woods and maybe send a levy spearmen to go cap the buildings and start the timer

how will u protect your spearmen if i send in my cav, general and maybe 1 BBs to kill those levy? there is no way how you could protect them without exposing your other men into arty fire.

this tactics you describe can work quite well, but only on a very few maps where u actually have to cover the dojos with majority of your troops while only spear levy go a few meters out from the forest to do the capping.
OOODDIIINVALHALLAAAAAAA on the 20th of April 2011: What I know is that... heh, eh ja how can I explain? ...deh feeling to believe in Odin is right, dat is what I say, ja?!

Offline Butan

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 12:35:31 am »
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i dunno why, but so many people are somehow afraid to fight in the woods. even most of the melee builds tend to go through the open...


Yea thats even more stupid because cavs have a great debuff speed in woods (dunno about debuff damage though), so melee are protected against almost anything in there even if they have to melee IN there.



Quote
imo if you have arty on relatively open map and enemy doesn't, the enemy can't win if you both have the same skill. its because the one without arty is pushed into the attack and defending in FOTs is just "easier"


Thats true if the arty fire forces the opponent to do a bold action, but what if he just stand ground and thin up/place his troops for more cover ? Thats what I do and even if I let him shot all his ammo, I won 90% of the time.


One of them was a 2v2 battle: except some minor renforceiments here and there it was a 1v1 + 1v1, and my opponent had 2 armstrong guns squad, me just infantry (+2 spear) and cav.
Long story short, he managed to put my elite infantry vet to 50 units, my general to 50% of his force (general still alive, though dead by the end), and overall like a 150 squad worth of dead bodies all around with ONLY ARTY. Still I stand ground, pushed where it was a good idea, and they all rout to my slighty superior infantry numbers (even after the bombardment, due to the fact that 2 armstrong cost quite a lot...).

Thus I almost never pick arty except in siege and Im not too unhappy about it.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:42:38 am by Butan »

Offline ManOfWar

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2012, 01:23:20 am »
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Ya I was trying to make a response to that,

usually the cannons cannot finish off anything, and if I play my cards right my tosa riflemen allow me to get the first volley, winning me the fight
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Offline Tyrell

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Re: Shogun II Total War Fall of The Samurai Multiplayer Tactics
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 07:38:39 pm »
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Yugekitai are amazing. They can win battles singlehandedly if you use them right.
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