The State of Hoplites

[Canary]

Unless something drastically changed in the coding of polearms with spears, I recall that any polearm over 150 length used with a shield gets a 35% damage reduction, the same as a longsword/heavy bastard sword would get with a shield. Which means with the 166 length ashwood pike you get the reduction, but you dont with the 150 length warspear, giving you more damage overall.

Originally I was told that all polearms had the penalty, but the ones over 150 reach got an even worse penalty.

I've been told the ashwood pike gets additional penalty with a shield because of its above a certain number length. The penalty it gets in speed is like 35% instead of 15% for somewhat shorter spears, these numbers might not be perfectly accurate.

No.

Nope. The damage penalty applies to all polearms used with a shield, regardless of reach. It's been like that for a long time. As in, ever.

Yes.

Every polearm gets a 30% damage reduction when used with a shield or on horseback (or both, they don't stack), and a comparable speed penalty which is based on the item's speed but is harder to determine the exact percentage.

The tag for "penalty with shield" does not and has never actually done a single thing, though you used to find it appearing on most every polearm above this magical 150 length, including several that could not be used with a shield!

double sided lance has highest damage for hoplite i think

Currently the battle fork with its base 32pierce is the highest damage hoplite weapon. The lower reach, however, makes it less attractive than the ashwood pike, which in my experience has (or had) the perfect ratio of speed to length to damage to give it a wide "kill-zone" where you'd nearly never glance without trying too hard to spin the weapon.

Anyway, as for you, Kreczor, you seem to be picking up the style pretty well. You're decent when fighting with your teammates and seem to know when a good time to remove your shield is. The playstyle is mostly about your staying power in group fighting, the shield enables you to do things a pikeman wouldn't, but you can still assist teammates by hitting the guys attacking them and pressuring people a good distance from you. Your minimum range also requires (slightly) less finagling to land hits from it than a pike, making it slightly more versatile, if not as deadly, as something like a longspear. The fact that you can put away your shield just adds to that versatility. The way I look at being a hoplite is being able to extend the reach of another weapon, or being a spearman capable of blocking multiple directions at once, rather than playing as a shielder who's got a long one-direction attack. I guess that's why I only have 2 shield skill, but there you go.

[Gurnisson]

nevah! I have mighty poleaxe too, its much cooler!

I had both Mighty Poleaxe and Masterwork Ashwood Pike. I sold both, and one of them twice.

[Darkoveride]

only thing hoplites need is a second attack, Overhead strike or shield bash

Also Join the rest of us awesome hoplites and spartans.

[Kreczor]

Anyway, as for you, Kreczor, you seem to be picking up the style pretty well. You're decent when fighting with your teammates and seem to know when a good time to remove your shield is. The playstyle is mostly about your staying power in group fighting, the shield enables you to do things a pikeman wouldn't, but you can still assist teammates by hitting the guys attacking them and pressuring people a good distance from you. Your minimum range also requires (slightly) less finagling to land hits from it than a pike, making it slightly more versatile, if not as deadly, as something like a longspear. The fact that you can put away your shield just adds to that versatility. The way I look at being a hoplite is being able to extend the reach of another weapon, or being a spearman capable of blocking multiple directions at once, rather than playing as a shielder who's got a long one-direction attack. I guess that's why I only have 2 shield skill, but there you go.

Thanks for the uplifting compliments

As for the ashwood nerf: I won't be bothered too much by it. The only way it will affect me is when I'm crafting them in strat. As that is unlikely for quite some time, I won't be worrying about it for quite some time. The damage is going to be the rough part, guess I'll be (maybe) seeing some of you in the duel server now...

[Rhaelys]

Kreczor, I would recommend altering your build to the following:

(click to show/hide)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 69
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 0
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 111
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

As compared with what you are currently running:

(click to show/hide)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 23
Agility: 15
Hit points: 72
Skills to attributes: 6
Ironflesh: 7
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 1
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 116
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

With the first build, you gain an extra rank of Power Strike, which will make you deal more damage, and will also offset the damage nerf introduced with the 0.260 patch. You would be sacrificing 3 health and 5 polearm proficiency. The health loss comes out to 4.2% less than what you would have with the second build, while the 5 polearm proficiency loss will be, for all intents and purposes, unnoticeable. Extra proficiency will not really help you as a hoplite, either; your role is to know when you can safely attack and support your teammates, and when you should focus on distracting opposing players with your shield. A few points of polearm proficiency will not help you in that regard.

[ShinySpoons]

In addition to what Rhaelys said regarding wpf: You really only need the minumum. If you do end up getting WM, I highly suggest putting it in one hand prof. Makes you much more effective in 1on1's or tight spaces where polearm sideswings will hill the wall.

And on the off chance you DO get bored with being a hoplite you're not really gimped as a sword and board.

On the matter of why awlpike was given a "not usable with shield" tag, it was due to realism purposes. Awlpikes just weren't used with shields.

Ashwood pike was nerfed because it was basically an awlpike but...better. Like, just straight up better. Now it has slightly less dmg but with more range and can be used with shield. As a nerf, makes sense.

In terms of battle effectiveness, I've found that as a hoplite/piker, you make good players die. When a good player is ganged by 2-4 guys with twohanders/onehanders/polearms they can hold them off and frequently win. But with a Hoplite/pikeman's range you either force them to disengage or they die. Stabs are easy to block but its the range and being able to stab through teamates that makes them such a great support class.

Oh, and yeah, learn how to stab through teamates if you don't know already. Sometimes you mess up but its worth it.

[San]

I would be happy if ashwood was sheathable, then I would use it, however selfish a request this is.

[Teeth]

Which scenario are you describing there?

Because usually players pick different weapon classes because of personal preferences, and not because of the cost-benefit-ratio. I don't know which 15k MW weapon you are talking about, but it must be one of those 2hd sword/halberd - weapons. And I don't think many people will say "Hey! I will go hoplite instead of 2hd, because ashwood pike is so cheap!". I think money is a really low motivation factor.

We saw this concerning bows. Let's be honest, in almost every last patch archers got nerfed down more and more, and still we have too many of them. (Let's see what the missing ladders change). It's because apparently most archers simply wanted to play an archer in this game, and that's what they do regardless to any nerf or other penalty.

What a lot of people are forgetting im this thread and in general, is that you can also use an ashwood pike without a shield, which makes it awesome! I'm describing the scenario of me having a MW German Poleaxe, but I'm using an unloomed Ashwood pike cause I do better with it. Spear weapons are very effective. Yes, money is a really low motivation factor, thats why this nerf was very minor and well deserved. 3 less damage than the awlpike but 2 more speed is still a great trade off that is worth it imo.

166 length with 93 speed is just very good, especially combined with the ultra fast stab animation of polearms.

[Canary]

Ashwood pike was nerfed because it was basically an awlpike but...better. Like, just straight up better. Now it has slightly less dmg but with more range and can be used with shield. As a nerf, makes sense.

Actually, before they were changed, the ashwood pike was entirely worse than the awlpike. 2 less damage, 2 less speed, couldn't be sheathed, couldn't be used with a shield, and was much heavier. All it had over the awlpike before was 1 length and 1 overhead blunt damage. They buffed it at the same time as they changed it to be useable with shield and took that away from the awlpike. Increased the speed by 3 if I recall. Also, they changed the model. I miss the "fatty pike" it used to be.

Something less concrete that the awlpike has going for it is the deceptive model. The tip is so thin and small that it can be virtually undetectable when moving. This used to cause a lot of people to complain about its length or "ghost reach" and speed and all kinds of things, but it's really just that it looks sneaky.

[ShinySpoons]

I hated that thing, villages would always but it as the polearm choice and we'd be stuck with the worse iteration of a pike in the game. I much rather like the newer model as well, though thats probably my inner hoplite speaking.

[Kreczor]

Kreczor, I would recommend altering your build to the following:

(click to show/hide)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 69
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 0
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 111
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

As compared with what you are currently running:

(click to show/hide)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 23
Agility: 15
Hit points: 72
Skills to attributes: 6
Ironflesh: 7
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 1
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 116
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

With the first build, you gain an extra rank of Power Strike, which will make you deal more damage, and will also offset the damage nerf introduced with the 0.260 patch. You would be sacrificing 3 health and 5 polearm proficiency. The health loss comes out to 4.2% less than what you would have with the second build, while the 5 polearm proficiency loss will be, for all intents and purposes, unnoticeable. Extra proficiency will not really help you as a hoplite, either; your role is to know when you can safely attack and support your teammates, and when you should focus on distracting opposing players with your shield. A few points of polearm proficiency will not help you in that regard.

Is that build not for a 31? I'm merely hitting 31 and retiring asap. I'm not arguing on the fact that I would have liked to go 24/15 but I can't seem to get enough attribute points to make that possible. I think I'm merely a bit silly in the head but it seems impossible for my intentions of the game at this time.

As for the removal of the awlpike: I was about to loom it when the changes came out so I think I lucked out. I think I'm overall happy with the changes, mainly due to the models 

[Zerran]

No if I'm looking at it right, that's a build for lvl 30. He cut off 2 of your IF and 1 WM to get you that last strength and powerstrike. Weaponmaster and Ironflesh should be low priority skills, at least compared to powerstrike. They're nice to have, but sacrificing 3 hp and a fraction of a percentage point of speed for 8% on top of your powerstrike multiplier is definitely worth it, especially with the hefty reduction to your damage you get from using your weapon in 1 hand.

[Kreczor]

No if I'm looking at it right, that's a build for lvl 30. He cut off 2 of your IF and 1 WM to get you that last strength and powerstrike. Weaponmaster and Ironflesh should be low priority skills, at least compared to powerstrike. They're nice to have, but sacrificing 3 hp and a fraction of a percentage point of speed for 8% on top of your powerstrike multiplier is definitely worth it, especially with the hefty reduction to your damage you get from using your weapon in 1 hand.

I get it, those two points he converts into an attribute point (strength) then the point from WM goes into PS I'm not exactly thrilled about losing more HP but it is Rhaelys, he should know what he's talking about.

[Trikipum]

Real hoplites use also a sword. This is my hoplite build at level 30:

Strength    27    
Agility    12    

One Handed    105    
Polearm    104    

Iron Flesh    2    
Power Strike    9
Shield    4    
Athletics    4    
Weapon Master    4