The solution for Upkeep

[IceManX]

Hello,

I was thinking about the upkeep and how some problems could be fixed either for new/medium and hardcore players.
So that most people would be fine with it.

- First of all the upkeep should be lowered to 5% of the itemprice.
5% is enough for it, imagine if you buy a house and the estate agent wants 5% of the buying price from you, could be a huge amount of money. And you wont be happy.

- Let the chance of break stay like it is today, also let the high wpf effect it - like what it is today. I dont know do wpf in Bows affect the chance of breaking arrows? If not plz integrate it. Same with Bolts.

And now this is the important part of all:

Integrate the higher price of Heirlooms into the Upkeep. Why was that forgotten?
A Heirloom costs the same like a normal item, but gives more boost.
Where is the logical when upkeep was performed... I heard things like... people should not be able to use their best gear everytime. Their best gear are heirlooms! The best is not what you can buy on the normal itemshop.
Imagine a Heavy Kuyak can be as good as an Coat of Plates. But it nearly costs half of the price, but has less weight. That means a Lordly Heavy Kuyak would also be be better than the coat of plates, even with a higher upkeep price.
A new player could have more upkeep cost then some hardcore player because he has 3 Heirlooms, for example Lordly Gauntles, Lordly Armor and a Masterwork weapon. The heirlooms are better than the standard weapons, and a new player needs higher tier weapons/armor to compensate the
distance between them.
To prevent the old hardcore players from using their best gear everytime the more cost of heirlooms should be integrated. A new/medium player doesnt count when he is wearing some of the mid to high-tier items...

A Danish GReatsword cost 15922 Gold
If we take 5% of it, then it would be 796 Gold
My Masterwork Danish Greatsword cost 33436 Gold
5% would mean 1671 Gold

These prices would be real, because the heirloomed one is better than the normal version. Why is there no adjustment for these items?

New/Medium players wouldnt be to much punished with a new 5% of the itemprice (better than now with the 7% which is a huge punishment).
And the old hardcore players are forced more not to use their best gear everytime what upkeep was standing for.

It would perhaps also lead to people using mid-tier weapons and heirloom them.

[Bobthehero]

IMO the few extra damage and 1-2 speed or armor, arent worth 3x the cost.

[Overdriven]

Especially when it takes 3 gens to fully heirloom something.

[IceManX]

Maul Gauntles
weight 0.5
Body Armor 6
difficulty 9

Lordly Mail Gauntles
weight 0.5
Body Armor 13
difficulty 9


Plate Mittens
weight 1.5
Body Armor 10
difficulty 9


That means someone who has enough money (Gen 4 or above) needs to pay only 3427 Gold itemprice (% then for the repair) for the gloves.
For the much worse protection with Armor 10 what the plate mittens give... someone needs to pay 10817 Gold itemprice (% then for the repair).

There is no balance between old players and new players, when new players need to pay more for their gear to make teir stats even and cant even afford it...
and still people use the best gear... wtf why we need upkeep then? when some can just benefit because of the stupid system.


I can make you an example from Reallife.
Mercedes Benz E200
135 kW (184 PS)
engine displacement    1796 cm³

Mercedes Benz E500
300 kW (408 PS)
engine displacement 4663 cm³


Now if we use the automobile tax from germany. Were you have to pay around 6,75 € for every 100 m³ engine displacement.
E200 needs to pay 121,23 €
E500 needs to pay 314,75 €

Its the same car, and the same comfort. But with alot of more boost and prestige. The one who has the better engine needs to pay more for the same.

Thats what was forgotten in the upkeep system. There is only a punishment for new/medium players who need to fight in rags against some hardcore players. Even with good gear most of them wouldnt stand a chance to kill them, but they get punished multiple times then.

IMO the few extra damage and 1-2 speed or armor, arent worth 3x the cost.

And plz think again, its not 3x the normal item price - its just 2 times.
1st heirloom 1/3 more price, 2nd heirloom 2/3 more price, 3rd heirloom 3/3 more price.
This means an item with 10k costs after 3 times heirlooming 20k not 30k what u think.

When we take the example for the gloves, the lordly mail mittens would cost around 7k. that means they are better than the plate mittens, but costs over 3k Gold less in the repair system.


Heirlooms calculating into the upkeep system would rly help, and what do what the upkeep system was integrated. to keep people away from using everytime their best gear to get an advantage.
Noobs would not be harmed and older players just need to manage their gold more (as I heard, its very useful to mange the gold - what old players accused to new players!)

[El_Infante]

I only know that I cannot afford 35k equipment without losing tons of gold. Here is my equiment:
- Morion
- Scale armor
- Khergit boots
- Polished Gauntlets
- Eslavona
- Buckler.

I dont use a heraldic, or milanese, or sallet. Only medium equipment and two expensive sword/buckler.

[Dehitay]

I'm rather confident that if you start changing the upkeep rate of heirlooms to be a percentaged based on the heirloom's new price, people will just flat out stop using heirlooms and start using the most powerful weapons in the game instead. A Longsword is 6660 gold and my MW Longsword would be just right under 14000. Only three 2 handers are worth 14000 or more. And while I may keep using my MW Longsword rather than them, I sure as hell would use more powerful armor than heirloomed armor if it's going to be cheaper.

[IceManX]

I'm rather confident that if you start changing the upkeep rate of heirlooms to be a percentaged based on the heirloom's new price, people will just flat out stop using heirlooms and start using the most powerful weapons in the game instead. A Longsword is 6660 gold and my MW Longsword would be just right under 14000. Only three 2 handers are worth 14000 or more. And while I may keep using my MW Longsword rather than them, I sure as hell would use more powerful armor than heirloomed armor if it's going to be cheaper.

You say it right.
Thats why Heirlooms should be calculated into the upkeep system.
Because then the upkeep system would do what it was intended, to prevent people from using their best gear everytime. And the best gear are heirlooms, just check the stats and the price what it is today. Some Gloves with a price of 3,5k Gold heirloomed are better than standard gloves with a price of over 10k. But the new players need to use the expensive gloves even when they are worse than the heirloomed ones. Is that fair?

You only would use ur MW Longsword then when you are winning, before you would use another weapon. That means you would only use ur best heirlooms when you can afford them. Not what it is now, noobs running around in rags because of the 7% upkeep, and hardcore players use their heirlooms to pwn everybody.

And about the armor, u would have to deal with less accuracy from wpf and more weight that makes u slower...
Imagine how a transitional armor could be lordly and then more powerful than a real p0late armor. but it doesnt have the weight, wpf reduction and doesnt slow u down that much.

[Dehitay]

You say it right.
Thats why Heirlooms should be calculated into the upkeep system.
Because then the upkeep system would do what it was intended, to prevent people from using their best gear everytime. And the best gear are heirlooms, just check the stats and the price what it is today. Some Gloves with a price of 3,5k Gold heirloomed are better than standard gloves with a price of over 10k. But the new players need to use the expensive gloves even when they are worse than the heirloomed ones. Is that fair?

You only would use ur MW Longsword then when you are winning, before you would use another weapon. That means you would only use ur best heirlooms when you can afford them. Not what it is now, noobs running around in rags because of the 7% upkeep, and hardcore players use their heirlooms to pwn everybody.

And about the armor, u would have to deal with less accuracy from wpf and more weight that makes u slower...
Imagine how a transitional armor could be lordly and then more powerful than a real p0late armor. but it doesnt have the weight, wpf reduction and doesnt slow u down that much.

I don't think you quite understood what I said. I'm rather confident the if you were to take the heirloom price of an item and go look at the item in that category at the cloest price, the plain item would end up having better stats than the heirloomed item. In the case of the MW Longsword, the closest in price would be the Nodachi which has a stronger attack and more length. However, since I'm a speed player, the speed of the Longsword (why I bought it in the first place) would encourage me to keep using the Longsword. Basically, the stats of heirloomed items don't actually match their price

[IceManX]

I don't think you quite understood what I said. I'm rather confident the if you were to take the heirloom price of an item and go look at the item in that category at the cloest price, the plain item would end up having better stats than the heirloomed item. In the case of the MW Longsword, the closest in price would be the Nodachi which has a stronger attack and more length. However, since I'm a speed player, the speed of the Longsword (why I bought it in the first place) would encourage me to keep using the Longsword. Basically, the stats of heirloomed items don't actually match their price

yeah this is the proof.
U would use a Noodachi instead of your MW weapon. That means you would stick to a weapon that is a little bit cheaper.
But when you are winning you would use the better weapon because you like that weapon.
Same with the armor, imagine if u got an Lordly Transitional. You would perhaps use a Kuyak or something like this.
But when you are winning you would use the Lordly Transitional Armor.

With the 5% of the itemprice new/medium players wouldnt be hamred to much. they could afford their gear much better. and the old hardcore players need to stick to some cheaper gear and then they could use their heirlooms when they are on a winning cycle.

At the moment we have 3 conditions:

New players
Medium Players
Old/Hardcore Players

The New players are punished of the upkeep system. They grind from lvl to lvl and use rags and rly cheap gear.
When they got some gold... the buy things what they like... but after playing abit most realise that the repair is just punishing them.
Some stay at the game because they like it and perhaps hope for a better time/future. Some quit.

Medium Players are players that perhaps play for a medium time and sometimes a few hours in the week.
They have some gold and bought some gear, but mostly use it when they have Multi x3 or higher.
They can rarely afford and upkeep their gear. But sometimes lose amounts of gold and switch back to cheaper stuff when they lose.

Hardcore players used to play hours a day and mostly playing for months.
Sometimes they are Gen 9 or higher, or perhaps didnt retire that often.
But they have hundred thousand of golds, it doesnt rly matter for them with the upkeep.
They can use their gear even with x1, the puffer is rly big.
They use sometimes many heirlooms and that makes them best, not to mention that they mostly rule the top of the score (place 1-5 in the score table)
Sure the most important partis their large skill, but the heirlooms help them a little bit.

Now imagine today a hardcore players is facing a medium player.
Hardcore has around 10 Armor more on everything. More Dmg, more skill and more Gold.
Even if those guys would wear the same shit, but the hardcore player has everything heirloomed to 2 or 3 times. He would have a little advantage and pays the same gold for it.
He would beat the ass of the medium player.

But often the New and Medium players cant use their stuff, 7% upkeep, they use cheap gear. The got beaten up and have no chance against the player with the heirlooms.

To make a better balance upkeep should be decreased to 5% of the itemprice and calculate heirlooms into the upkeep.

[Dehitay]

yeah this is the proof.
U would use a Noodachi instead of your MW weapon. That means you would stick to a weapon that is a little bit cheaper.
But when you are winning you would use the better weapon because you like that weapon.
Same with the armor, imagine if u got an Lordly Transitional. You would perhaps use a Kuyak or something like this.
But when you are winning you would use the Lordly Transitional Armor.

With the 5% of the itemprice new/medium players wouldnt be hamred to much. they could afford their gear much better. and the old hardcore players need to stick to some cheaper gear and then they could use their heirlooms when they are on a winning cycle.

All right, I tried, but it turns out you're either close minded or absent minded. I don't know how you managed to read that I would start using the Nodachi instead of the MW Longsword when I said twice that I would be using the MW Longsword, but I guess that's a possibility when you're not trying to look at the other side of the conversation. The point was the Nodachi is a better weapon than the MW Longsword for less price. So if I was a power player, this is the shit you claim to want to avoid.

But what really gets me is how you think somebody will go from Lordly Transitional Armor to Kuyak. Where the hell did this stupid idea come from? Anybody with half a brain would just go from Lordly Transitional Armor to Transitional Armor. Or if the wanted to stick with the high end price, they could afford Black Armor for less than Lordly Transitional Armor.

[IceManX]

All right, I tried, but it turns out you're either close minded or absent minded. I don't know how you managed to read that I would start using the Nodachi instead of the MW Longsword when I said twice that I would be using the MW Longsword, but I guess that's a possibility when you're not trying to look at the other side of the conversation. The point was the Nodachi is a better weapon than the MW Longsword for less price. So if I was a power player, this is the shit you claim to want to avoid.

But what really gets me is how you think somebody will go from Lordly Transitional Armor to Kuyak. Where the hell did this stupid idea come from? Anybody with half a brain would just go from Lordly Transitional Armor to Transitional Armor. Or if the wanted to stick with the high end price, they could afford Black Armor for less than Lordly Transitional Armor.

Why are you insulting me, did I insult you?

I made some examples where you can see that heirlooms are still better than standard items, or items with a higher price.
You said yourself that you prefer speed and thats why you choose the Longsword instead of the Nodachi. Thats okay and fits your playstyle.
And if you are a good player then you kick someones ass with ur MW Longsword against a Nodachi. It doenst matter you.

Imagine you use a MW Longsword even when there are Danish Greatsword or MW Danish Greatsword around... why would this change? People would still their user their prefer weapon, but they have to pay for it!

We are not pre january, were those cheap items were really a crapshit! Items were balanced and everything has it advantage these days.
The thing with the Kuyak and the other armor was just an example.

Do you mind that a black armor has much more weight, decreases your wpf more and slows you much more down than a transitional armor?
A New/Medium players needs a black armor and pay the price, the hardcore player uses his lordly transitional armor. He pays less then the other player and doesnt have so much disadvantages with the armor for a lower price.

I'm rather confident that if you start changing the upkeep rate of heirlooms to be a percentaged based on the heirloom's new price, people will just flat out stop using heirlooms and start using the most powerful weapons in the game instead. A Longsword is 6660 gold and my MW Longsword would be just right under 14000. Only three 2 handers are worth 14000 or more. And while I may keep using my MW Longsword rather than them, I sure as hell would use more powerful armor than heirloomed armor if it's going to be cheaper.

And here you wanna say that people will use other items. Thats what the upkeep is for. Using different armor than their best gear everytime.
But you would use still ur Masterwork weapon, why do you know for sure that other wouldnt use their heirlooms anymore, or not? But if they do, they will have to pay more upkeep for it.

I made a mistake and said what you would do, shouldnt have done that. i dont know you and I shouldnt count your behavings. Should have thought more in general public, like my thread was started.

You are saying that you would use another armor instead of the heirloomed ones, this could mean that you are one the hardcore players. And you dont wanna lose your supremacy. I am assuming... but it sounds like, because you dont like the idea and most people always think in subjective.

But the heirloomed armor would always be better, even with a higher upkeep price. But people must think and manage their gold before using heirloomed items.

The upkeep what it is now only punishing new/medium players. Old players arent really effected by it.
There must be a system were items are calculated right, it could be done with the heirlooms.


if you are still thinking I am wrong with my numbers and calculations, you could perhaps take a look at some itemstats and write them down.
You still did not give any facts, only your subjective thinks about my suggestion.

[Joelturuz]

Just buy an item. Then go see how much heirlooming would give it.

Bear in mind that 1 heirloom level is the work of about 50 or more hours. Even triple heirloomed weapons/armor do not give veterans an unbeatable edge, as the stat change would be just 3 damage and 1 speed. For armors that'd be 6+ to armor rating. How is that so very unfair?

If this change would be done, who'd heirloom Anything at all anymore? Only the cheapest gear would be worth heirlooming as better ones soon have a cost which just makes it stupid not to upgrade.

For 150 hours we get 6+ armor rating or 1+ to speed and 3+ damage. Look at the numbers. We'd get to choose between this or wearing plate armor.

[Spawny]

I've seen you claim a few times now that old players have tons of gold.

Where did you get that idea from? I've been playing cRPG for over a year now and I have 61k gold.

Your suggestion would make my heirloomed items useless in 1 go. As mentioned before, if you have to pay twice the price for something not worth twice the price, there's something wrong.
When using a flameberge for instance. Masterworking it has hardly any effect on it's damage potential, but would  make it a VERY expensive item to upkeep, costing about as much as gothic plate armour. Might aswel just use the standard version, not notice the difference and save tons of gold.

[Blondin]

I don't see why new player are more impacted by upkeep.
New player can now buy good gear very fast, it's quite easy to make money now, even more as a peasant as low requirement gear are cheaper.

About heirloom, i'm not sure that older player pwn new player because of his heirloom, it's just that he plays hundred of hours to obtain his heirloom, and hundred hours of play give you a very good training.

First, to find a solution there must be a problem, i don't see problem with upkeep, it's working as intended.