Messages

1

General Discussion / Compatability with other mods

« on: February 13, 2011, 05:24:05 am »

I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere, but I searched and didn't see a topic on it.  I want to use crpg and the Floris Mod Pack:( http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,148140.0.html ) concurrently for the graphical updates of that pack.  Unfortunately, this requires a lot of file overwrites just like the crpg installation.  I'm thinking this is likely to cause conflicts and, well, just not work.  Anyone know if this is the case or if there is another set of mods, maybe ones that are much more narrow in focus only upgrading graphics that I could use?  Thanks for any help in advance.

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: The Useless Longbow

« on: February 13, 2011, 04:22:40 am »

@Bruce - Okay, there are a couple of problems here.  First, I think you'll find you're taking a combative angle and implying you are disagreeing with my statements when mostly you aren't.  You are absolutely right that arbalests had extreme range, but so what?  We are not discussing arbalests, we are discussing standard crossbows, and specifically those represented in the game, something an arbalest most certainly was not.  The arbalest was the pinnacle of the crossbow, not an early model, so to speak.  I do concede however, that I perhaps should have pointed that out.

I think you'll find you agreed with me in your second point.  You basically just said a longer version of what I said.  All your points but one amount to them being easier to use, not better.  You're right, they offer superior armor penetration which was an actual superiority, everything else about them, however, was ease of use, not quality.  As you yourself said, they are slower to fire and despite what you claim they indeed did have inferior range, albeit partly because of the way they were used.  Bows were fired in arcs as bombardment, crossbows were fired in shorter range in straighter arcs.  Your point about siege is important, however.  This is why they were mainly used for this and less so for open field engagements.  I don't know how you can disagree with that without historical ignorance.

As for your third point, you read into my comment something that was not there.  I didn't say they were inbred hicks that used them, I said they were easier to use, exactly what you said.  Longbowmen trained their whole lives.  Crossbowmen, not so much, because, as you rightly point out, they didn't have to.  This was the advantage of the crossbow.  It was easier, exactly what I said.  Again, you are reading implications into my statements that are not there.  It's true that crossbowmen became more and more relied upon as time went by, but this was a slow transition over time, and yes, after awhile crossbowmen became the norm over longbowmen in mainland Europe.  So?  If you compare the first hand accounts you'll see the French were slaughtered by English longbowmen thousands at a time.  You can go read first hand accounts of French soldiers talking about how they came to fear the sound of the arrows in the thousands raining down on their lines and how they could find no shelter from them.  They also couldn't respond in kind very well.  Why?  Inferior range.  If I recall correctly, I believe they referred to the sound as that of a horde of bees descending upon them.  You'll find historians who specialize in this era crediting it as England's main advantage.

Your final point about the reason for missing in the game is well made.

*Edit* Seeing as this started as merely my attempt at correcting a couple of statements made and is not directly related to balance, I'm not going to bother with continuing this back and forth if indeed Bruce does respond.

3

Game Balance Discussion / Re: The Useless Longbow

« on: February 13, 2011, 03:19:11 am »

Sorry if you guys consider this slightly off-topic but I just wanted to address a couple people's points.  Being I am actually trained in history as a discipline and I know a few things about a couple people's comments I thought you might all appreciate a little elucidation.

@Dunecat - Mongol bows were superior in the sense of portability and armor penetration to a longbow, this is very true.  There were some trade-offs involved here, however.  Mongol bows had far inferior range, which makes sense, seeing as they were used in an entirely different manner.  Mongol archers were mounted skirmishers, not long range bombardment.  Mongol archers rode in on their targets, sometimes to just out of melee range, and shot point blank.  The point of the mongol bow was ease of use from horseback, not marksmanship at range.  A longbow was designed for long range shots, the standard battle engagement range being something in the area of 250 yards, well above what a mongol bow could be expected to handle with any kind of accuracy.  Longbows also, while mostly used for general bombardment in formation(in other words, you didn't really aim with a longbow, you lobbed in the direction) were capable of solid accuracy, which leads into the other comment I wanted to address...

@Kafein - What you say is, historically, utter nonsense.  Longbows, and bows in general, actually, were capable of far longer range than any crossbow.  Crossbows were not developed because they were better, but because they were easier.  A bolt was capable of greater armor penetration on average, this was true, but they couldn't do anything approaching the range or accuracy.  Crossbows were imprecise weapons, used primarily by non-archers.  They were easy to load, required no great skill to use, and were an alternative for those without the skill and training of the more traditional archer.  This shifts and gets blurry as you get closer to firearms, but it is generally true.  I also would like to point out, the aiming in the game is rather clunky and imprecise.  Probably heavily due to lag and hit box detection errors, but still.  I don't know if you've spent much time playing as an archer, but it's not some cheap easy thing.  I have fired historically accurate replicas of longbows, seen experts use them, etc. and I can tell you they are quite accurate, despite your claim to the contrary.