Messages

1

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

« on: January 26, 2011, 06:29:01 pm »

Dunno who you are talking about.

Just look through the history of this topic, or trigger a discussion about this on a populated server.

Knight in Gothic Plate with 2H Sword kills 30 player alone, then he at last gets killed with someone using a heavy crossbow, and what happens? Guys starts whining and complaining how NOT FAIR is that crossbowman killed him and telling crossbows are too strong (After he one-hit-killed a few dozen poor players)....

Did you notice players almost NEVER complain about the strength of their own preferred weapon and style, but always about the weapons of those who used to kill him on the field?


My respect goes to the few who are not like this, and are really trying to improve the gameplay with their suggestions.


P.s.: Nah, it wasn't me. I always play games with the name Storm[HUN] with usually the |>B<| tag (http://bunker.aaxxs.com) added. In M&B spec chars not allowed so my name looks like __B__Storm_HUN (Optionally with a number at the end in case of cRPG characters)

2

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

« on: January 26, 2011, 06:19:17 pm »

Sword swings at heavy armor should kill in 2-3 hits from blunt trauma

Sorry but totally BS. Have you ever seen REAL armor from close? Have you ever been hit with anything IRL while wearing solid armor?

Heavy armors are well designed.
1, If you git a plate, the force will be mostly evenly distributed by the plate on the surface of body part under it, makes it less N/cm2
2, They used to wear padded cloth, lather, etc. under it to further help the absorption and distribution of force from hits taken (and also help the distribution of armor  weight).

In real life, there is only two way to damage someone wearing a full plate (not counting in throwing him down from a high place. )
1, Attack unarmored spots - this was the main technique back then. In the base stance they held the sword with two hand, one on the handle and one holding the blade about at its half, using the sword like a short spear, trying to pierce and targeting spots not covered by plates (like armpit) or where armor parts join and not overlap properly (ex.: between breastplate and helm if there is no neck guard). There were also special swords designed directly for this.
2, Crushing through armor. This was the hard way, mostly preferred by those not skilled enough for the first, aka common soldiers. This is what war hammers, war picks, morning stars and axes were mainly used for. Heavy crossbows (those that used a mechanism to be drawn) were also strong enough to crush a bolt through most armor. Later when firearms appeared, after a while better or stronger hand cannons, pole cannons, later pistols, arquebuses etc. were also breaking through armor, that's why the use of armor disappeared. Though, in the early firearm stages strong, high quality armor were ABLE to stop a bullet from a pistol or a common carbine. At those times high quality armor were often tested by being shot at with a gun. If the bullet did leave a mark but not crushing through, the armor passed the test. Then often the mark of the test shot was surrounded by ornaments as a proof of quality.

So actually, heavy armor in M&B is still MUCH WEAKER than it would be realistic. But if it were realistic not too many could ever kill the players wearing it, right?

3

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

« on: January 26, 2011, 05:58:25 pm »

You know I am member of a gaming community with hondred members based upon a shooter, also low admin on one server there, and well... it is just the same as here:

98% of posts regarding what to change are nothing but low skill people whining because high skill people PWN them like hell. (And people who played only a few hourse and have only basic equipment whininh because people who spent weeks saving up for the warhorse or plate armor do bid damage and take low.)

For the remaining 2%, well... Try to make your voice stand out of the crowd... Good luck, you will need it.

4

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

« on: January 22, 2011, 06:24:53 pm »

Boost:
Charge damage
Horse hitpoints
Speed

Agree.

Nerf:
Maneuverability. A lot. (enough so they can't stop or avoid a correctly timed and drawn pike when at near full speed.)
...
This is not realistic for anyone who ever rode a horse.

It IS realistic for anyone who REALLY knows to ride, and not just thinks he can. That is abut 1 out of 1000 so called "horsemen".

Of course velocity counts as you can't suddenly turn around at very high speed but horses can still maneuver very well. High precision is also possible but requires a rider who is good not only in riding but in dressage (I mean the classical art, NOT the laughable "sport") as well.

However it is likely that in the middle ages most knights did not have much more clue about true riding art than sport rider today so in this light it makes sense that they could not achieve such perfection. We know some riding masters from later ages in Europe (Like for example Antoine de Pluvinel) but they taught only a very thin chosen "VIPs" like kings and princes, the ordinary knight did not have too much chance to access such knowledge. One notable master too from later ages is William Cavendish, First Duke of Newcastle Upon-Tyne who was not only one of the greatest warlords but also the greatest riding masters of his time - but this is another topic.

If you are by the way interested in early medieval combat, read King Duarte's manual titled Bem Cavalgar Toda Sela - though it is in Portuguese and sadly I do not know of any accessible English translation so I could not read it myself yet.

So, actually I was very happy to see how horse speed and maneuverability had been both raised compared to the first M&B game.

They can insta-stop.

With sliding stop you can stop a horse from full speed in a few seconds btw. It is more lame how they instantly stop and rear in one place when running into something.

* They get shot down from 2-3 hits from an archer or thrower. (But mysteriously survives a pike to the head..)

Well the archer part is realistic. Horses are very sensitive creatures and though they are relatively big and strong, an arrow or a well placed sword blow takes them out just as easily as a human. The pike, well... that should take them out too.

* They dodge arrows like a Ninja.. (This is the worst part, but vital for them of course, so I understand they have to do it)

This is a bit strong...

* They run around in towns and mountains and rooftops and whatnot. Places where a horse would never be preferred.

Rooftops and high cliff walls are unrealistic I agree. But what's your problem with towns?

Pikes would be MORE dangerous to cav, but cav would be MORE dangerous to non-pikemen.

That makes sense I agree.

My few cents...

5

Suggestions Corner / Re: Running horses into obstacles.

« on: January 22, 2011, 05:59:12 pm »

What would real horse never do? Die?

Running into obstacles. Just as I described above.

6

Suggestions Corner / Re: Running horses into obstacles.

« on: January 22, 2011, 05:57:36 pm »

Well, technically almost everything in the game is very far from reality.


Horses:
 - Horses as mentioned, have more brain than running into things (riders however do not always...). If you try that they either jump over it, change direction suddenly or in the case of a noob rider (which is the case in 99% of times) there is a chance he stops suddenly (may even slide on his hooves like someone "pulled the handbrake") in which case he may send the rider fly in a nice curve forward.
 - Rearing up is the MOST STUPID thing ever in this game... horses may rear for different reasons, but it is not a way of stopping. In case of sudden stops they put the weight balance down and back, on the hind legs and under the belly but that is a different story, the way they rear up in M&B is practically hurting the laws of known physics... to rear up they must stop first, trying to rear from speed would result in the hind legs slide forward and the horse turn around in the air and landing on his rump or back. And anyway, in real life horses rear up very seldom.
 - It is ÜBER DAMN LAME how they rear up for any minor thing, you walk into another horse and they rear... you ride close to another rider in battle and they rear... you charge into someone and they rear... you get hit by a polearm and they rear... Bull***... The creators of the game seemed to have no much idea about horses in general, not to mention such fields as equine ethology and biomechanics, or the little notable fact of how warhorses were trained, namingly to ignore and crush through any obstacle in their way. In real life there is no warrior who could stop a charging horse unless he gets a fatal blow from a weapon.
 - Regular horses who did not get war training would not run into and through people walking around, or only very seldom or by accident.

Regarding falling, I've fell off a horse in canter two times and did not even hit myself, saw a friend and his hors falling over together on a patch of ice and none got hurt... and in the same time I saw a girl falling off from a horse standing still, and on sand, and still breaking an arm badly... so it depends on many factors, by some degree random, but it also counts how much you know how to fall without getting injured. The heavier armor you wear can make falling the worse - leather armors may protect you while I am sure falling off in full plate can hurt... I guess knights have had fallen lot of times and even practiced it so they were used to it (The myth knights could not stand up or mount again when fell is bullcrap.) but a regular fighter who just got his first horse not long ago (back then it was a real luxury) will more likely get injured due to lack of experience.


Two handed swords and bastard swords:
 - In real life the technique of these weapons is based on their mobility, a large sword can be hell quick too if well balanced and used by an experienced warrior. These techniques include grabbing the blade with the off hand to hold it like a short spear (used against plate armor), hitting with the pommel, grabbing the blade with two hands and using the hand guard as a fighting pick to crush helms, etc. It is a complex martial art, and the "grab that metal and swish it around like an idiot" style you see in the game is just the typical Hollywood image of medieval combat by people who have no clue about it at all.
 - And in general, fighting was much much more cmplex than most people think...

Some pics from mostly medieval fighting codexes:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/182.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Gladiatoria/Gladiatoria.htm

Also check this: http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/thalhofer/thott-2_290.html


So... if we keep arguing what is wrong with the game, we can continue that for eternity but it will not really change anything. The game as it is, get used to it. Minor improvements can be done but if you wanted to correct all faults that would mean developing a totally new game. Maybe M&B 3...