Messages

16

General Discussion / Re: Something about mail coifs and aventails - since I'm bored

« on: April 23, 2018, 08:32:08 am »

wut???

Immortalis these mail coifs look cool but these don't seem protective to me at all,what if i just jab my heavy claymore sword to the opponent's head,will it be protected by the velocity of 20 mph/h coming sword??? I think it will just break through it ?

So it doesn't protect from sword,i think it will not protect from highly strained arrow shot as well???   i think these mail coifs can only protect if i pee on the enemy from the castle,even in that circumstance it wouldn't protect the head completely.

Can u write about swords if u have some knowledge would be happy to read

Mail is almost impervious to cuts, and decently protective against piercing attacks. It would stop a claymore (which doesn't really have a piercing tip) quite easily. The problem with the mail coifs lie in the fact that they are very bad against blunt force. Even if it stopped the sword from going through (which it would) the force may still split your skull or break your neck if you were unlucky.
That's why they were worn with padding underneath, and if you were a knight you also wore a solid steel helmet either over or under it (depending on the period and what type of helmet).

It would still hurt to get hit by a 2kg sword in the head (if you're talking about the greatsword variant of the claymore) but it would not be lethal.

Against arrows, it would generally protect well enough especially if you wore the cervelliere under it. Unless we're talking about the 100+ pound longbows (taking about the draw weight, not actual weight), but those were feared for a reason. You still had a shield for dealing with those when need arose. Shields only got scarce when armor got good enough to protect against arrows and crossbows reliably, around the late 14th century.

About swords, sure I could. I'm not an expert on those by any means, but I'm not an expert on armor either

Edit: Coincidentally I stumbled upon this guy here, who actually does test a claymore against a mail coif (the shape is not the greatest, but the material was properly made). About 2:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9eCzG8AAoQ

However keep in mind that by the time greatswords had appeared, mail coifs were out of fashion by a few centuries. And even so, he still wasn't wearing a solid helmet under, something the wealthier would do.

17

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 10:17:38 pm »

I'm not trying to poke fun at your hobby, i'm just saying comparing reenactment to reality is not a good argument. It's not exactly what I would call a "hardcore" representation of Medieval life or warfare .

Cool to watch but it doesn't prove anything because it's extremely low energy and not realistic at all. ( obviously for safety reasons )

No, that is not what I'm talking about. Those people often wear unhistorical armors, which have too much padding, too many safety features.
Real armor was worn with minimal padding, there were no visor locks (well except for a few helmets), and the battles were even less chaotic

18

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 10:03:50 pm »

dont forget that smithing and forging today is very different from the medieval times. today we have light weight metals/alloys and technology they didnt have back then.

not to mention foam and other materials for padding and so on

Yes, but the people I'm talking about have authentic stuff. The closest thing to medieval quality steel, thickness, the padding etc.
For example Tobias Capwell and Ian LaSpina. Their armors are as close as possible to armors of the medieval time.

19

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 09:51:04 pm »

LOL I never said plate armor was useless please don't quote me on things I never said. I said it has serious drawbacks that wouldn't be apparent to a casual enthusiast or historian. I've already shown examples of tournament fighting Oberyn. It's also important to remember that these tournament knights were the equivalent of modern day professional athletes, they were not the norm for society at the time and even among them quality and skill varied greatly. These tournaments were heavily regulated and refereed and are not a good example of an actual medieval battle with prolonged combat with no breaks.

All drawbacks are apparent to anyone who owns armor Salad. Because people who own it seek to reenact as much as they can. They train in it, fight in it, test it to its limits. They'd know far better than you would

20

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 09:49:17 pm »

Again any hobbyist can run around their house in their armor or do backflips for some youtube video and think everything is fine because they are not showing examples of prolonged activity and it's consequences. This study incorporates finding actual abnormal human breathing patterns while wearing plate armor and monitors and calculates the extra energy expended into real statistics , something a hobbyist or armor expert is not doing or thinking about.

I said, one youtuber who owns armor has worn it several hours in a couple of cases - up to 6 hours or so. Not sitting still. He was fine in it.

And you seem to think that medieval battles required you to fight with a lot of stamina absorption. Simply not the case. Formations were rigid, with rarely any extended 1v1 combat ever happening. At most you'd stand poking someone for a few hours at max until they or you decided to rout. It's not like you can't catch a break either. No one can fight for hours upon hours without rest, armor or no armor.

Yes, you tire faster in armor. That doesn't make it useless. It protects you against the countless arrows, the countless hits, the countless blows that would otherwise kill you. Its worth a bit of compromise in mobility and stamina, especially when you don't need said mobility and stamina to fight effectively.

21

General Discussion / Something about mail coifs and aventails - since I'm bored

« on: April 20, 2018, 09:43:07 pm »

Well since I am bored again, and more people than expected cared about my corrazina post, I'm going to do one for mail coifs.

Keep in mind that I'm not the one that researched all of this. I usually see or hear people talk about and explain it, with sources. I then look at the sources, and go 'well that is a reasonable source'. Then I do some minor independent research.

Really most of this stuff is thanks to the youtube channel Knyght Errant. The guy's awesome at explaining armors.

Well anyway, mail coifs

At first whenever I saw a mail coif, it'd be this:

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I'd then go: "Who the fuck in their right mind would ever wear that?"

Well the truth is... nobody. Not medieval knights or warriors at least. The mail coif is very misrepresented in todays history. We just have to look at some pictures from the Maciejowski bible, and we see that the mail coifs are actually very different from the previous misinterpretation.

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As you can see, all mail coifs depicted are tapered to the chin and the neck. They're not left hanging, and they don't leave one of your most critical areas - the throat - open for attack. Now some might say that drawings aren't a great way to find out about armor, since the artists might imagine things. I'd like to disagree. Most miniatures and arts found in different areas of the world, painted by different artists, have been pretty consistent with what they show in terms of armor.

Simply - they showed what was around during that time.

Two interpretations of this style of coif can be seen here:

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Both are correct. The first one is simply two separate pieces. One goes almost vertical on your head, while the other one goes the horizontally over it.
The second style is a mail coif which ends just below your chin, with then a padded ventail drawn over the face to protect the throat, chin and mouth.
Both cover much better than the crap we're used to seeing

Now there were a few ways to get the mail not to hang off your chin (as in the second picture). One way seen in some artwork is simple lacing. One would tie the mail securely around the neck, and it would not hang and bring extra weight.

There were many more configurations of mail coifs, but that would take ages to write. So instead I'm going to cheat and list this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJivNyTZv0Y
which explains them way better than I do.

Back to coifs

Coifs were never worn standalone. They always had padding underneath, and often also had something known as a Cervelliere, or Secret helm, worn under it. We can again see this in artwork where some soldiers who have their mail coif off are seen with this helmet under it:

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Sometimes they were worn over it, although this was rarer.

Now on to aventails

An aventail is the mail attached to a helmet (as opposed to worn under it), which would generally be a bascinet. As with the mail coifs, these always taper at the chin, which can be seen in countless artworks, effigies and findings from the medieval era.

This is not a proper aventail:

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These are:

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Well, if people still are interested, I might write about something else in the future

22

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 09:16:06 pm »

The study just proves what is already basic common sense, that you are trading mobility and energy for protection.

The fact that you are wearing  well crafted or evenly distributed armor doesn't matter because it is the leg armor that is causing most of the extra energy expenditure.

The leg armor which weighs about 6-7 kilos.

Yes... very much extra energy expensiture. Oh so much...

Face it, it's basically insignificant

23

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 09:12:10 pm »

Oh a test done by a medieval Historical community  backed by an actual University's scientific proof isn't enough??? LOL

The proof is in the science bro. They even mention your exact false claims of properly made armor not impairing activity would still cause major energy expenditure and restrict normal breathing.

'medieval historic community' my ass

If we take a look at the armor they used you can immediately see it wasn't authentic. Those were scientists, who knew their stuff when it came down to measuring. They didn't know jack shit about armors, and it's easy to see

First off, they already said they were using armors that weigh 50 kilos. Which is bollocks, because no combat armor ever found has weighed 50 kilos. They have weighed around 25. That's half

Second off, they said that it was uncomfortable to wear.

Which also means tat the armor was completely wrong, because armor was made to be comfortable. People who own authentic armor state it to be comfortable to wear, move and fight in.

So who am I gonna believe? A bunch of scientists whit no expertise in the medieval armors, or the worlds leading armor expert Tobias Capwell and what he is saying? I think I'm gonna go with the armor expert

24

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 08:55:13 pm »

You wouldn't tire as quickly as if you were wearing lighter armor. And moving quickly keeping in formation would be more important than being a omeglul duelist hero, if you were isolated in combat or broken from your formation you would be mobbed down and killed quickly no mater how much armor you have, there is much higher chance of that happening if your body is physically exhausted and incapable of moving, which is why the majority of fully armored Knights fought on horseback.

No, if you're wearing that armor you have:

1. Less chance to get killed
2. And if they managed to immobilize you, they'd try to take you alive

win-win situation.

25

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 08:54:11 pm »

All your combat strength comes from your legs, and wearing armor having weight on your legs would greatly impede your ability to fight. The top weight distribution wouldn't be the problem. Your body would also need to expend much more energy with the added weight.

oh look there was a study done on this

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-14204717

And that study was the dumbest study I've seen to date.

They used armor which was neither well districuted, too heavy for the user, and basically out all that fucking weight on the shoulders and the legs. Ofc you'd get tired

I'm tired of arguing with you. I know of people who own armor, and who say that it's no issue to wear is for extended periods of time. I'm gonna believe that far more than I'm gonna believe some random guy on the internet.

26

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 07:12:12 pm »

30-60kg

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

So after watching some of these HEMA battle videos of people fighting in plate armor you can clearly see these enthusiasts are sometimes completely gassed out in just 30 seconds of "combat" dragging their weapons lazily and completely losing all footwork and defensive posture. At the most i've seen these guys fight for a couple minutes without looking like they are gasping for air and losing all martial coordination. 

Sure people on average were in better shape back in the medieval era, but cmon, just show me a video of people fighting for 15-20 minutes straight without armor and then come back and tell me that wearing 30-60kg is no big deal and not cumbersome.

What HEMA people fighting in plate armor? HEMA is unarmored.
If you mean other guys, not many people have authentic plate armor around. They also fight with the visors down for safety reasons, which is not historical
And believe me, a visor up makes all the difference

27

General Discussion / Re: NEW EVENT IDEA FOR EU ONLY, FOR THE BEST ROLEPLAYING EXPERIENCE, MUSLIM FRIENDLY

« on: April 20, 2018, 02:23:48 pm »

Sounds fun, where can I join?

28

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 09:24:08 am »

Didn't the knights kill each other squires during the battle and than in the evening share the stories of killing whose poor peasants while drinking ale?

Not at all

Not saying they were the greatest people out there, but they certainly would not kill each others squires. Especially when the squires were generally of noble blood, and future knights or men-at-arms themselves

29

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 08:32:52 am »

Was it really the English Knights who carried the day at Agincourt?    Or was it the horde of naked archers who more or less executed the exhausted Fully Armored French Knights who were stuck in the mud dying of heat exhaustion?

Again i'm not saying plate is totally useless, it's just far more exhausting and has many more drawbacks then people tend to describe. The French were absolutely slaughtered at Agincourt mainly due to exhaustion. Obviously it offers better protection, but by no means protects you from from 90% of danger on the battlefield.

Here is just a small list


1. Falling off your horse in 30-60kg of armor/equipment at a gallop would at the least leave you completely out of action but probably outright kill you.

2. Bad peripheral vision

3. Exhaustion

4. Priority target

5. Greatly reduces your chances to retreat or fall back if on foot

6. Way more exhausting march to the battle, your legs will probably be jelly by the time you reach the enemy lines if you are attacking on foot.

7. http://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htm#.WtmAEIjwaUm You can read here how easily people can be felled in full plate, knocked unconscious, grappled etc. You are far from invulnerable just because you have plate armor, and these were just 1v1 duels.

Yes, the knights played a big role in Agincourt.  And the french knights were not 'dying of heat exhaustion', instead they stupidly charged the well entrenched positions of the english, through muddy ground. That's a death trap whether you wear armor or not. And the archers were not the only ones there, surprise. The English dismounted knights helped a fair bit.

1. Stop saying 30-60. It's 25-30 at max. And no, it won't kill you. People fall of horses all the time in jousting armor, which is quite a bit heavier. They're fine.

2. Yes, I totally agree. That is, with the visor down. Which was likely only done in lance charges and when getting shot by arrows. Otherwise, the visors were up.

3. Not enough for it to matter over the protection you get

4. Not really. In fact, the armor says "Don't kill me, I have lots of money. Ransom me!" Sure, a priority target. But for other reasons. And that still doesn't mean they'd actually be able to do anything to you. Especially if they were peasants. Wouldn't stand a chance.

5. No it doesn't

6.You don't march with armor on, you march with the armor off. Then you put the armor on, and go to battle. And even if you did march with it on for whatever reason, it would be fine. Just ask anyone who owns an authentic set. An authentic set, not a cheap badly made one.

30

General Discussion / Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about

« on: April 20, 2018, 07:03:25 am »

I've read accounts of the siege of Constantinople, and other various military actions around the time, the Spanish conquests of the Americas etc, Full plate was too cumbersome that's why it fell out of use.  Few Full suits of plate were unearthed in Venetian holdings in the Med, these were ceremonial suits showing off wealth status for Captains and Governors. Just because someone can use it without a problem for a short amount of time comfortably in a youtube video or HEMA competition doesn't mean the weight won't exhaust you over time. For example most people considered in good shape today couldn't last 10 minutes in a boxing ring wearing nothing, wearing 30kg + of armor would quickly exhaust you in melee combat no matter how evenly the weight was distributed or how good of shape you are in, it was only ever practical to use full plate on horseback.

Full plate fell out of use because armies got centralized, not because it was unpractical. When the state started to hold a regular army which got paid, and which had the profession of being soldiers, they realized that they could really not afford to give people armor. So what they did was give people guns instead. Because guns were cheap and required minimal training. Cuirassiers, which were the wealthy bunch, still wore bulletproof breastplates.

I'd really like to take a look of those accounts of yours.

Sure, you will get exhausted over time, but so will you without wearing armor. And if you're gonna get exhausted anyway, might as well do it boing protected from 99% of the hits you will receive. And it really isn't 30kg +, it's more like 30kg -
Especially if you count the various mercenaries who would only use parts of a full plate harness.

The english knights would like to differ about that horseback thingy. During the Hundred Years War, they mostly fought on foot. And know what? Their armor was heavier than most around during that time. History doesn't agree with you