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Messages - Pappus

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1
Game Balance Discussion / Re: balancing cav
« on: May 14, 2012, 12:39:49 am »
We could approach the couching closer to the real deal, where you can only couch for a really short duration let's say 2 seconds, after that the aiming degrades by a lot (we could mimic that by uncouching).



Although I am not a cav anymore I feel, that cav really is in a bad spot.

I could go 1/10 when I go for aware targets and if I go for unaware & boring I would pull 16/1...

What I really wanted was a fighting chance even against aware targets. 1h guys sidejumping and onehitting you/ your horse, hell even great mauls can pull it off. 2h already feels like a counter to cav.

In my opinion everything other then throwing weapons/spears should be vulnerable to cav. You don't like it? Get a spear protect the flanks, bottlenecks.

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Suggestions Corner / Re: Punishment for poll abuzers
« on: May 12, 2012, 10:41:01 am »
1 for fun
2 for partypoopers.

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Beginner's Help and Guides / Re: Basics of Cav and upkeep?
« on: May 11, 2012, 05:11:56 pm »
It is not as expensive as people make it out to be.

x1 multi nets equal for 23k gear, since it is very hard to stay consistently on x1 (and I am currently suiciding right away for hours), I am still making reasonable profit with a nice cavalry setup.

Helm: Nordic
Body: Light Kuyak
Feet: Rus splintered
Gloves: Mail Mittens
Horse: Rouncey(or courser if you want but the rouncey is lovely)
Weapon...

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 11, 2012, 03:59:56 am »
I just thought ...

All these people complaining about being unable to counter everyone in the game and then complaining on the forums, what do these people do in other games ? If they play a generic shooter like e.g. battlefield, are they running up to a tank as a medic and try to destroy it with a knife ? And when they get killed in the process do they send hatemails to dice, demanding knifes being able to destroy tanks because tanks have NO COUNTER and its no fair ?

BF has a counter for everything implemented. Take out the SAM's and watch how the mood about flying stuff changes rapidly.

Quote
Close to them, you refer to touching them, because it happens only if you try to walk through him. So yes a good movement will allow you to pull it off.

And I will tell you again, that most of the archers on EU_1 run as fast as me. I use no shield, only a lance as weapon, light kuyak, nord helm, rus splintered boots, 0.5 weight gauntlets and I have 8 athletics. Not that it matters once he draws I have to switch to erratic movement and he can backpaddle a bit and gain distance. I will die like 9 times out of 10 starting from 3m away after being unhorsed right next to them.

Oh and MrShine, draw a ticket and get in line, because melees die often enough in two well placed hits aswell.

Btw occasional storm condition? You mean turn left press strg + j, aim for my chest and get those 56 dmg on my chest doubled? Or the less risky variant, outmaneuver stand still wait for me to come around and then aim for the chest for increased dmg?

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 11, 2012, 03:45:24 am »
Alright, well if we are saying that Kills don't mean anything, then what is everyone's answer to the posted total damage dealt stats released a month or so ago that showed archery (specifically bows) dealing about 9% of the total damage for both EU and NA... How are you interpreting that?

Thanks for the heads up on those numbers, but how are they meaningful or useable? It is just total damage dealt, we have no idea how many archers there were.

What we would need is such a statistic that gets it down damage per round per class per amount of players, because from my observation a team of 40 players doesnt have 20 archers, but likely 20 melees.

We can do some aproximation though. From what I have seen there is 1 archer per 6 players ~~

That would boil down to:
1 archer/crossbowman does 2,25% of the total dmg
1 of ANYTHING else does 2,55% of the total dmg.
(aproximation used a 40 man battle)
I included HA,HX,HT into the latter, The stats sample I was able to find were a bit small for them anyway. In total 5ish percent.

It would translate into: Same effectiveness, less danger.

Can't some server admins to some controlled logging? Gettint 80 players, clear the log, count the classes and let them wreac havoc for e.g. 10 rounds?

Even then I don't want the dmg of them to drop to 1% of whatever, that is not the point of this, they deserve to enjoy their gaming time as much as everyone else does. There is jsut a need to cut away the sheningans and then, if effectiveness/playability drops to low, buff them on the high range dmg again.


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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 08:40:54 pm »
You ask me to work on my reading abilities when this thread has rehashed your idea probably 10 times?

And your argument most certainly is invalidated if you don't know how the mechanics of the game work.  If I log in as a peasant and get bump killed by a horse in 2 hits, then come crying on the forums about how OP horses are, that's a pretty poor argument to make, isn't it?

Forgive me for assuming you've played for only a week, but a suggestion as absurd as the one you presented tells me that you are someone who has not played an archer before, and certainly hasn't given the game enough rounds to see how archers really aren't that much of a problem.  If archers were so overpowered and always able to kite everyone to death wouldn't archers constantly clutch the end of rounds and dominate the scoreboard?

It happens sometimes, but individual archers are very rarely the end of round heroes.

Your argument is not validated by exagerating it. Peasant time holds a whopping 10-12 rounds.

If you go into spectator mode and check how most archers die it is by being distracted or not aware of an immediate danger. If they are aware they rarely die and they kite others to death.

Very skilled archers even kill shielders by drawing, turning, and move past the shield in a quick move, but that is rather uncommon. Most of the time if a shielder is after them they will kite them and attack other targets.

You cannot possibly think, that the kiting garbage that is going on is enhancing the gaming experience or balance.

I for one would like to see them way more vulnerable to close infantry and cavalry in general, leading to a need for them to be protected and at the same time (some tweaks later) see the need for 2h guys to be shielded by teammates instead of rushing straight in.

Oneshotting any unarmored horse charging them? How does that enrich the balance and gaming experience? How can you justify that it happens? Is it a hard shot? Mostly oneshotting good armored cav close to impact?

I have around 60ish HP and have light kuyak + gauntlets and I get oneshotted to the chest? Obviously not always but often enough that if I see an archer being aware of me I will turn and ride away ASAP. So even if I would switch to those armored horses I am still in grave danger of dieing to a single arrow without the need of a headshot.

Grave enough of a threat, that I run away like a mad men when an archer is even looking in my general direction.

I have 8 riding and when there are a couple of HA's in the enemy team I usually try to get them on their arabian horses you know what happens? 9 out of 10 I end up dead without a chance of striking him down.

We ride in the same direction and I am faster, obviously I try to stay right side behind him so he cant shoot, which lasts about half a second until he just turns a bit to give me a shot. The damage to my horse or myself is considerable more then I do to him by scraping his horse, which is all I can realistically do every 30ish seconds. My horse or I am long dead before that happens.

Now you might say, why do you go after the HA if you cannot beat him? What do you think happens if the HA decides to go after me? He would be behind me and there is no way in hell to do anything about it but pray that he oversees another player charging him or run back into the thick of my teamates. The only difference is, that if he chases me he needs more arrows for my horse while I can do 0 about it. If I chase him the positive speed multiplier goes for his arrows and they pack a huge punch to horses. It is even worse if they do a quick turn into stop to shoot me because then he only needs one or two arrows to drop my horse.

I mean why don't you make an STF character get on a horse and try to take down Corsair. Or some other notorious archers/HA's. Just go after them and then express your feelings about it.

Even if the buff hits I won't be a cavalry by then anymore and I don't mind terribly much I just do what most cavalry players do now, couche early dehorse someone, play a bit with your new prey. Then go into the battleline and search for unaware targets unprotected by spears of any kind.

It all boils down to: Archer beats crossbowmen, 2h and cavalry, unshielded thrower.

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 07:18:20 pm »
Pappus if you're trying to troll you're doing it wrong, with those humongous walls of text/effort.

If you aren't trolling, might I suggest you give the game more than a week before thinking you know what you're talking about.

Might I suggest you give your reading abilities another go, especially if people give you a clear hint. I am about 2 mil xp away from gen 3, which you should know takes more then a week of playing.

You register in the forum when you chose to. It doesn't mean I started playing then.

And even if I would only be playing for a week that does not invalidate my argument. You are like one of the guys telling young adults, that their argument is invalid due to their age.

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 06:39:59 pm »
They need a fundamental change in their mechanics. Allow me to repeat myself.

Disabling sprint or reducing their running speed are both valid option, although I like your idea more, but it doesn't help against the crap HA's do against pursuers, that is why I took option nr. 2. It might be less severe for HA's, but it is still garbage as it is.


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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 06:20:26 pm »
This whole thread is just pointless anyways.

You always have people yelling to nerf archery, it always gets nerfed in major patches (besides the headshot buff, which was entirely not needed and rarely noticeable by the majority of players anyways only the armoured HP stackers), people yell that it was not enough, and the cycle continues... Regardless of anyone's opinions.

Also I am suspecting that the majority of the people here never played any archery in recent times. It is frustrating as all hell.

Archers rarely dominate scoreboards.

They don't need nerfs, they don't need buffs, they just need to be left alone ffs (imo) before someone (like cmp) fucks everything up again.

But yes, do go on discussing this bloated topic and thread like anyone who can change things actually gives a damn, wait patiently, and await another small tweak to archery/nerf while blithering on about a class you have never played.

Tears, the scoreboard doesn't hold a lot of information. Just finishing blows on you or by you. You can't take that as basis to gauge the effectiveness of a class as such.

I don't want to gimp archers, I would love to see them a hell of a lot more dmg on ranged hard shots, but when someone is close they need to drop. You say it yourself, archering is currently frustrating even if you do it and that is a good telling that it needs a rebalance.

If you gimp their kiting capabilities and give good counters to them you can justify to increase their dmg on the more skill demanding shots, or more accuracy. I think that it would be a better tradeoff.

For you it might be frustrating, but those 2h guys, cav etc are certainly frustrated aswell if their courser/rouncey/arabian gets oneshoted or if a HA is doing his kite thing and it takes like 5 opposing cavs to take him down. I want to eliminate that frustration and change it to a more enjoyable situation for everyone.

But balancing needs a step at a time and I think we all see a lot of rangekiting going way over the top.

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 06:10:42 pm »
I'm talking about the Eques part. You described the build as either Hoplomachus or Eques, now I have no idea what a Hoplomachus is, werent that you just described it, but Eques just means horseman. Which is a shitty description and the fact that you say it in Latin doesn't make it any smarter. Horse is Equus.

Dude what part don't you understand? Eques is a gladiatortype. What meaning does it hold that equus is a horse in latin? You know why I used a latin word ? Because gladiators were named in latin, in rome, latin metropolis.................

Eques might be called eques because he started his fight on horseback or because many of them were former members of the equestrian order (cavalrymen). I don't know that, but your type of argument is still flawed. And if Eques meant archers are overpowered and need to be nerfed in latin - it doesnt matter as it would just be one meaning.

And actually I would still call it gladiator, but I specified to prevent people saying stuff like: ZOMG Gladiator AND HORSES? or ZOMG Gladiator SWORDZZZ only!!!1

Gladiators are commonly referred to as master of many weapon arts, including riding.

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 05:50:35 pm »
Wow, great description you've got there. You just called it a horseman, you really needed Latin for that to sound intelligent.

From wiki
Quote
A Hoplomachus (pl. hoplomachi) (Greek: ὁπλομάχος) (hoplon meaning "shield" in Greek) was a type of gladiator in ancient Rome, armed to resemble a Greek hoplite (soldier with heavy armor and helmet, a round shield, a spear and a sword). The hoplomachus would wear a bronze helmet, a manica on his right arm, loincloth (subligaculum), heavy padding on his legs, and a pair of high greaves reaching to mid-thigh. His weapons were the spear and a short sword.

Eques, indeed is a horse in latin, but that is just one meaning. They would open up the gladiator fights on horseback, however you wouldn't know that, because the english wikipedia doesn't contain that information. The German wiki does and I will use the google translator for you, because I am not willing to translate myself.

Quote
The equites opened its struggle with the gladiatorial games. They were with a brimmed helmet with visor, a flat round shield, a lance and a short sword gladius armed. Were in contrast to all other categories of gladiators, who dressed only in a loincloth subligaculum, they wore tunics. They began to fight on horseback, dismounted and then put him away with their swords. In pictorial representations, they are mostly represented in the final phase of the struggle, that is descended from a horse and on foot with swords fighting.

In retrospec you should have remained silent, because it doesn't make you look very 'intelligent' if you argue with nameroots when there is more to the word, especially since Hoplomachus doesn't have anything to do with 'Horse'.

Although I cannot comprehend how it is relevant in NAMING a build, a class so to speak if that perticular type was used in an military army. However bringing up that argument will net you another slap to your face:

There was a gladiator army, not for rome, but against rome. You can even watch a show: Spartacus: Blood and Sand + sequels. In case you didn't know it is a representation of what information we have of that era, and we know, that those gladiators formed an army by giving training to slaves as they received as gladiators. So gladiators train more gladiators until they reach army size.

Of course they also trained archers and such, but their frontline consisted of  gladiators.


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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 05:05:13 pm »
If you want it to be more precise: Hoplomachus or Eques is the specific.

Now that I have proven my point, lets get on and think about rebalancing archery.

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 04:53:34 pm »
ok. Please name me this «Class»

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 15
Agility: 18
Hit points: 52
Attributes to skills: 2
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 6
Athletics: 6
Riding: 6
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 5
Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 100
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 100
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 105

Despite that it is beside the point: Gladiator

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General Discussion / Re: What 2h weapon is wise to loom now?
« on: May 10, 2012, 04:25:27 pm »
Military Hammer, bought mine for 500k and it is a really rare weapon to see.

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Game Balance Discussion / Re: archery..
« on: May 10, 2012, 04:14:46 pm »
FTFY

Not true by a long shot. Throwing is too inaccurate for that and even if you hit, you need to do it a couple of times like 3 sometimes even 4 jarids/throwing axes with PT 7 and 120 WPF. Are not unheard of specially without the speedbonus or maybe even a negative one, since you will standing still prior to the impact it swiftly goes up to 4, if you get 2 good hits in movement, then that would kill them, but you have to drop a good amount of ammunition and the maximum ammunition you have would be 6 or 8 depending if you go with a seperate 1h or not.

How good throwing is working we can see when we take a glimpse at the throwing thread or the insane amount of throwers per game. 2 out of 60?

Edit: This mod =/= this game and this forum registration date =/= time playing this mod. Btw this game has classes. It doesnt matter if you call it build they all fit well into archetypes.

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