cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Formless on January 14, 2011, 03:02:42 am

Title: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Formless on January 14, 2011, 03:02:42 am
Sometimes I like to sit back and look at something and figure out what makes it tick and where will it go in the future.  These are my thoughts about Crpg, please share yours below:

Goodbye Strength Builds:

Strength builds have never been popular and after the patch they will become even less popular.  Now days there is really no point in building a str char, unless you are a die hard fan.  Strength characters reach their full potential in heavy armour and equipped with a good chunk of Iron Flesh.  Post patch heavy armour is expansive to maintain, so str players will be forced to cycle between light money making gear and heavy expensive money burning armour that makes high str builds so fun to play.  Therefore the str build will only be at its full potential only part of the time.  Furthermore the soft cap of 30 means that high str chars have to sacrifice a large number of wpf points in exchange for a few iron flesh skills that are only truly useful when wearing heavy armour.  So for these reasons sadly I suspect that str builds will become extinct.

For hard core fans of this build, make a 2 hander and grab a barmace or maul, you will do well with those. 

Hello Agility Builds:

I can definitely see this build become the dominate build in Crpg. High agility builds do not need heavy armour to be at their full potential.  In fact heavy armour might just gimp the build.   All a good high agility build needs is some light armour and a good spamming sword, (Katana's work great for this, I was also able to use the Side sword and no shield, Glaive or Long Hafted Spiked Mace works nice for polearms).    A cheap on the upkeep build that will easily make money and is at full potential at all times.  Best build for people good at blocking.

Balance Builds:

Should do okay in the post patch era, but not as well as the High Agility guys.
   
Archery:

One of the alts that I have is an archer.  From my experience Archery is in a good place right now, maybe even a tad stronger then it should be.  Its a nice build to make money with.  The only thing that is seriously out of whack is the longbow, its so slow it has become almost unusable.

Throwers:

Everyone and their pet monkey now throws,  thanks to the lack of heavy armour in the game throwing has taken a new life in Crpg and in some ways has replaced Archery as the dominate range form of combat.  Very good build for newbs to try.

2 Handers: 

Still the best.

Polearms:

The red headed step child of 2 handers.  These guys need some love.  Polearms could really use a shorter crush through weapon that is on par with damage and speed to the ridiculously overpowered bar mace.   

1 Handers:

Thanks to the nerf on armour and the throwing plague these guys are making a comeback.  I suspect there will be a new breed of sword and shield high agility guys coming along very shortly.  They should do very very well in the new Crpg. 

I would recommend that people try a lightly armoured agility build with no IF and converted skills into agility and wpf.

Calvary:

Hate cav, really really hate cav.  Its good that most heavy Cav is gone, but I assume they are simply collecting money now to come back and piss everyone else off in the near future.

HA


Hate Ha, really really hate HA.  I have an HA and playing one now is basically like playing a cav lancer but with a bow and a reticule that can fit a small house.  But HA still works well against other cav.

THE SPAM

The Spam is now reaching truly legendary proportions thanks to a nerf on armour.  Before the patch spam was still practiced but you knew that it would take more then 2 hits to put the average opponent away so you had to think and fight, block and move.  Not any more, thanks to the low level of armour in the game the spam is king.  Now days most people are put down with 1 or 2 hits, since the average opponent can be put down so quickly why waste time fighting him at all, just spam his ass down and move on.   

Post your thoughts, let me know what you think:
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Tornkik on January 14, 2011, 03:43:26 am
   

1 Handers:

Thanks to the nerf on armour and the throwing plague these guys are making a comeback.  I suspect there will be a new breed of sword and shield high agility guys coming along very shortly.  They should do very very well in the new Crpg. 

I would recommend that people try a lightly armoured agility build with no IF and converted skills into agility and wpf.




^ This is me.  :D
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Tritan on January 14, 2011, 03:45:41 am
How about an archer that has about 80 wpf in 2hander and 6 PS? Kind of a hybrid
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Goretooth on January 14, 2011, 03:46:27 am
str build is still here
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: AirPhforce on January 14, 2011, 03:50:54 am
Sometimes I like to sit back and look at something and figure out what makes it tick and where will it go in the future.  These are my thoughts about Crpg, please share yours below:

Goodbye Strength Builds:

Strength builds have never been popular and after the patch they will become even less popular.  Now days there is really no point in building a str char, unless you are a die hard fan.  Strength characters reach their full potential in heavy armour and equipped with a good chunk of Iron Flesh.  Post patch heavy armour is expansive to maintain, so str players will be forced to cycle between light money making gear and heavy expensive money burning armour that makes high str builds so fun to play.  Therefore the str build will only be at its full potential only part of the time.  Furthermore the soft cap of 30 means that high str chars have to sacrifice a large number of wpf points in exchange for a few iron flesh skills that are only truly useful when wearing heavy armour.  So for these reasons sadly I suspect that str builds will become extinct.

For hard core fans of this build, make a 2 hander and grab a barmace or maul, you will do well with those. 

Is this a joke? With power strike, and everyone in less armor, high strength builds are able to one-shot a majority of players in the game through a block. Since you can't wear heavy armor all the time, the only good counters are high iron flesh and high strength. And because strength and PS builds give a huge boost to damage, you can afford to use a cheapo-depot weapon and put the rest of your money into great armor. Not only that, each point of Power Strike and Strength give you a solid damage boost, while each point in agi boosts speed, each point of Weapon Master has diminishing returns, and if you're getting blocked, switch to something with crushthrough and never get blocked again.  Strength beats agility COLD right now.


Hello Agility Builds:

I can definitely see this build become the dominate build in Crpg. High agility builds do not need heavy armour to be at their full potential.  In fact heavy armour might just gimp the build.   All a good high agility build needs is some light armour and a good spamming sword, (Katana's work great for this, I was also able to use the Side sword and no shield, Glaive or Long Hafted Spiked Mace works nice for polearms).    A cheap on the upkeep build that will easily make money and is at full potential at all times.  Best build for people good at blocking.

So you spam, because you know you can't kill in one hit through a block like a strength character can. It takes you longer to kill someone, you're worse at fighting more then one guy, and what do you get for it? Rapid attacks? But only slightly more rapid then the balanced guy because of the diminishing returns on WPF? And you lose ranks in PS?

Balance Builds:

Should do okay in the post patch era, but not as well as the High Agility guys.

Should do better. The WPF you gain by getting an extra 3 ranks in weapon master in an agi build amounts to very little extra spammage and A LOT of damage lost by losing 2 power strike you would get in a balanced build.


   
Archery:

One of the alts that I have is an archer.  From my experience Archery is in a good place right now, maybe even a tad stronger then it should be.  Its a nice build to make money with.  The only thing that is seriously out of whack is the longbow, its so slow it has become almost unusable.

No argument here.

Throwers:

Everyone and their pet monkey now throws,  thanks to the lack of heavy armour in the game throwing has taken a new life in Crpg and in some ways has replaced Archery as the dominate range form of combat.  Very good build for newbs to try.

Throwing has always been good and the free-respec made many people try new things, everyone decided to splash throwing since xbows don't scale with strength or anything else.

2 Handers: 

Still the best.

Sweet argument to back up your points. Oh wait there are no points nor is their an argument.

Polearms:

The red headed step child of 2 handers.  These guys need some love.  Polearms could really use a shorter crush through weapon that is on par with damage and speed to the ridiculously overpowered bar mace.   

Oh so polearms, which already have fantastic advantages in range, useability (use with a shield and still use the polearm skill, or use a lance on a horse) and you want the one thing that two-handers has over polearms as well? Three ways to play with one weapon skill wasn't enough for you? You want FOUR?

1 Handers:

Thanks to the nerf on armour and the throwing plague these guys are making a comeback.  I suspect there will be a new breed of sword and shield high agility guys coming along very shortly.  They should do very very well in the new Crpg. 

I would recommend that people try a lightly armoured agility build with no IF and converted skills into agility and wpf.

Im doing that right now and it's ass. You have no weapon verity at all. Everything is the same the only thing that changes is damage type or perhaps a tiny knockdown chance. Even with 21 agi and full Weapon Master I can't block an attack and land a hit before they block. Why? Shields are too slow. Even with 7 shields I can't have a shield that wont break in 2 hits and still be able to counter-attack. These guys need help. Shields need to be lighter and faster, so spamming a shield user actually has some risk.

Calvary:

Hate cav, really really hate cav.  Its good that most heavy Cav is gone, but I assume they are simply collecting money now to come back and piss everyone else off in the near future.

HA


Hate Ha, really really hate HA.  I have an HA and playing one now is basically like playing a cav lancer but with a bow and a reticule that can fit a small house.  But HA still works well against other cav.

Heavy cav are gone? I see Plated Charges every other game.

THE SPAM

The Spam is now reaching truly legendary proportions thanks to a nerf on armour.  Before the patch spam was still practiced but you knew that it would take more then 2 hits to put the average opponent away so you had to think and fight, block and move.  Not any more, thanks to the low level of armour in the game the spam is king.  Now days most people are put down with 1 or 2 hits, since the average opponent can be put down so quickly why waste time fighting him at all, just spam his ass down and move on.   

Post your thoughts, let me know what you think:

What game are you playing? Spam is much less now due to the WPF cap.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Siiem on January 14, 2011, 04:08:06 am
This is all bullshit and OP knows it.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Ashrik on January 14, 2011, 04:34:06 am
How about an archer that has about 80 wpf in 2hander and 6 PS? Kind of a hybrid
Sounds like a gimped character that is bad in archery and not nearly as fast with a 2H as they should be.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Formless on January 14, 2011, 04:42:46 am
I guess we disagree about many things AirPhforce

Is this a joke? With power strike, and everyone in less armor, high strength builds are able to one-shot a majority of players in the game through a block. Since you can't wear heavy armor all the time, the only good counters are high iron flesh and high strength. And because strength and PS builds give a huge boost to damage, you can afford to use a cheapo-depot weapon and put the rest of your money into great armor. Not only that, each point of Power Strike and Strength give you a solid damage boost, while each point in agi boosts speed, each point of Weapon Master has diminishing returns, and if you're getting blocked, switch to something with crushthrough and never get blocked again.  Strength beats agility COLD right now.

To get the most out of str build you really need heavy armour.  Like you mentioned everyone is wearing less armour right now, that includes str people.  True you can kill most people with 1 shot.  But even with extra IF you will get taken out in 2 or 3 by a high agility guy because you are also wearing less armour.  Each IF gives you only 2 health points, the extra IF in my opinion are not worth the wpf sacrifice.  If you had good heavy armour that would magnify that advantage it would be worth it, but that is no longer the case.  But right now, equipped in low tier armour a small handful of health points ain't worth it. 

If I was a betting man in a 1 vs 1 between a high str guy and a high agility of the same skill, I would put money on the high agility guy.
What I agree with you on is that currently the best weapon for an str build are crushthrough weapons.
 
So you spam, because you know you can't kill in one hit through a block like a strength character can. It takes you longer to kill someone, you're worse at fighting more then one guy, and what do you get for it? Rapid attacks? But only slightly more rapid then the balanced guy because of the diminishing returns on WPF? And you lose ranks in PS?

Should do better. The WPF you gain by getting an extra 3 ranks in weapon master in an agi build amounts to very little extra spammage and A LOT of damage lost by losing 2 power strike you would get in a balanced build.

The Balance build will do fine post patch.  But I think agility guys have the edge.  Why?  Speed Kills and Money.  Again because of the low level of armour in the game speed is becoming crucial.  Crpg is becoming about who slices who first, who is faster on the draw.  Everyone goes down in about 2 to 3 hits, what is becoming crucial is who slices who first.   The key to high agility and making it work is good timing and blocking.  If you got those why would you go with a slower more cumbersome build.  The extra PS is not going to be that useful, you don't need it in a lightly armoured world.  What you will need is speed.

Besides most players playing balance characters will go for the most expansive armour they can afford to upkeep, barely scratching by.  While the high agility guy is most likely only wearing cloth armour or something close to it and using a Katana, they are currently piling up money.  What will they do with all that extra cash?  X-bows, Horses, throwing, maybe even heavier armour or expansive gloves? 

   
No argument here.  --> Wow we actually agree on something.

Sweet argument to back up your points. Oh wait there are no points nor is their an argument.

So much has been said about this, it would be like whipping a dead horse.
Oh so polearms, which already have fantastic advantages in range, useability (use with a shield and still use the polearm skill, or use a lance on a horse) and you want the one thing that two-handers has over polearms as well? Three ways to play with one weapon skill wasn't enough for you? You want FOUR?

Do you really need to ask. :twisted:
Im doing that right now and it's ass. You have no weapon verity at all. Everything is the same the only thing that changes is damage type or perhaps a tiny knockdown chance. Even with 21 agi and full Weapon Master I can't block an attack and land a hit before they block. Why? Shields are too slow. Even with 7 shields I can't have a shield that wont break in 2 hits and still be able to counter-attack. These guys need help. Shields need to be lighter and faster, so spamming a shield user actually has some risk.

You are doing it wrong.  Try a Heater Shield and a Side Sword.  To be a good 1 hand + board guy you need a mix of knowing when to be patient and when to be very agressive.  Takes time to learn, watch Balb or Man of War both of them are very good at that.
 

Heavy cav are gone? I see Plated Charges every other game.

Not as many as before.

What game are you playing? Spam is much less now due to the WPF cap.

What game are you playing.  Spam is much more alive now then ever.  Especially in a world where everyone dies in about 2 to 3 hits.  You no longer have to fight people you can just spam them away.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: ShinySpoons on January 14, 2011, 04:49:29 am
The power of a str build is in mass clusterfucks where you maul or mace puny peasants into the ground. One on one against an equal opponent with equal gear, the agi char would most likely win.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: cmp on January 14, 2011, 04:55:48 am
so polearms, which already have fantastic advantages in range
wut
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: AirPhforce on January 14, 2011, 04:56:15 am
(click to show/hide)

Your post so awful. This is the best part.

Quote
True you can kill most people with 1 shot.  But even with extra IF you will get taken out in 2 or 3 by a high agility guy because you are also wearing less armour.

Dying in one hit versus not dying in one hit. It's huge. And why can't you wear heavy armor? Im really confused man. Really confused. One build lets you kill in one hit and die in 2 or 3, the other, die in one and kill in 2 or 3? You take the latter? The hell is wrong with you?
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Formless on January 14, 2011, 04:56:29 am
The power of a str build is in mass clusterfucks where you maul or mace puny peasants into the ground. One on one against an equal opponent with equal gear, the agi char would most likely win.

I totally agree with you, battle and chaos and clusterfucks are what str builds are best for.  The ability to kill quickly and taking tons of punishment is what str builds are amazing at.  The more confusing the battle the better for the str build. 

Unfortunately 1/2 of the kill quick and ability of taking tons of punishment formula is gimped.  To take tons of punishment you need heavy armour and right now heavy armour is so expensive to use, you can only use if for a small amount of time before going broke.  That is why I feel str builds will be very uncommon in the future. 

Which is sad cause I loved and was good at fighting in clusterfucks and I miss by ugly ass heirloomed black armour. :cry:

Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: AirPhforce on January 14, 2011, 05:02:05 am
I totally agree with you, battle and chaos and clusterfucks are what str builds are best for.  The ability to kill quickly and taking tons of punishment is what str builds are amazing at.  The more confusing the battle the better for the str build. 

Unfortunately 1/2 of the kill quick and ability of taking tons of punishment formula is gimped.  To take tons of punishment you need heavy armour and right now heavy armour is so expensive to use, you can only use if for a small amount of time before going broke.  That is why I feel str builds will be very uncommon in the future. 

Which is sad cause I loved and was good at fighting in clusterfucks and I miss by ugly ass heirloomed black armour. :cry:

We ran a simulation of 1000 games at random lengths between 5 minutes and 3 minutes and found that with 47,000 in gear you broke even in money. If you don't wear heavy armor lol @ u.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: ShinySpoons on January 14, 2011, 05:09:00 am
You really don't need full plate to tank with a str build. A brigandine or sarranid guard armour coupled with decent gloves will give you enough protection. Hopefully the slightly lowered armour will force str builds to be more skillful with their tanking? I.e, moving to cause glances, not running into projectiles unneccesarily, blocking occasionally etc.

For a long time my str build was only in a brigandine and mail mittens. And in appropriate areas/maps I could top scoreboards using a morningstar, maul, or for those fast buggers, a longsword. (this was at least a month or two ago)

edit-some typos
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: bruce on January 14, 2011, 05:14:19 am
Sounds like a gimped character that is bad in archery and not nearly as fast with a 2H as they should be.

Meh. A bit more or a bit less wpf, matters little. As for archery, you can score hits - not as many times as archers with high wpf - with a str build which probably has 0 effective wpf after nerf due to PD and armour. And those shots still hurt, etc. I actually like my melee/archery hybrid with 7 PS & PD and 79 polearm / 119 archery wpf. It's good enough to hit targets at mid-range (and suppress other archers at longer ranges, although precise shooting at really long distances is hard) and strong enough in melee, as well (despite being still a bit slow, but meh 13 agi).


Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Formless on January 14, 2011, 05:16:19 am
Your post so awful. This is the best part.

Dying in one hit versus not dying in one hit. It's huge. And why can't you wear heavy armor? Im really confused man. Really confused. One build lets you kill in one hit and die in 2 or 3, the other, die in one and kill in 2 or 3? You take the latter? The hell is wrong with you?

You continue to misunderstand me. 

I really loved my str build character but its not the best build for the post patch world.  High agility guys are at the full capacity all the time, high str guys are only at full capacity of their build when they wear armour, the heavier the better.  Heavy armour is expensive you can only wear it for short periods. 

Strength builds are  best in large battles, in large groups.  Their ability to hit hard and get hit are the qualities that make them good.  What lets them take so much punishment are not the IF points but the heavy armour that magnifies that IF advantage.  Since armour is expensive and you can no longer wear it all the time but only for short periods the ability to take heavy beatings and walk away is gone.  Why make a build that is only at its full potential part of the time?  Why not create a build that is at its full potential all the time?

Dying in one hit versus not dying in one hit. It's huge. And why can't you wear heavy armor? Im really confused man. Really confused. One build lets you kill in one hit and die in 2 or 3, the other, die in one and kill in 2 or 3? You take the latter? The hell is wrong with you?

Why take the latter?  Because of the speed, I will have the ability to move faster and strike faster then the other build.  I only have to hit you 2 times, sure you only have to only hit me once.  But I can disengage  and engage you at my will, I chose the time, I chose the place.  I can run or I can fight.  For every feint you can make I can make 2 or 3.  I can confuse the crap out of you with that advantage.  I can move in, make you miss and kill you when you are trying to recover.  Speed is a huge advantage, it opens a world of opportunities against slower opponents.  You can have your extra 1 hit, I will take my speed.

 
 

Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: AirPhforce on January 14, 2011, 05:40:55 am

I really loved my str build character but its not the best build for the post patch world.  High agility guys are at the full capacity all the time, high str guys are only at full capacity of their build when they wear armour, the heavier the better.  Heavy armour is expensive you can only wear it for short periods. 
 

But you're wrong!

Druzhina Lamellar Armor is MORE then enough body armor, and it's only 12k! Transitional Armor is great as well, 53 body in fact, and it's still under 20k! You can wear this stuff ALL the time and still make money. Just because you can't be in Black Armor all the time doesn't mean heavy armor is worthless. I don't know why you keep saying it's too expensive. It's not!
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Formless on January 14, 2011, 05:46:06 am
But you're wrong!

Druzhina Lamellar Armor is MORE then enough body armor, and it's only 12k! Transitional Armor is great as well, 53 body in fact, and it's still under 20k! You can wear this stuff ALL the time and still make money. Just because you can't be in Black Armor all the time doesn't mean heavy armor is worthless. I don't know why you keep saying it's too expensive. It's not!

I tried going with Cuir Bouilli over Mail, 10 k my bec 7k, my Barbutte 2.3 k and leather gloves and shoes and ended up losing cash.  :cry:
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Ashrik on January 14, 2011, 05:53:58 am
Meh. A bit more or a bit less wpf, matters little. As for archery, you can score hits - not as many times as archers with high wpf - with a str build which probably has 0 effective wpf after nerf due to PD and armour. And those shots still hurt, etc. I actually like my melee/archery hybrid with 7 PS & PD and 79 polearm / 119 archery wpf. It's good enough to hit targets at mid-range (and suppress other archers at longer ranges, although precise shooting at really long distances is hard) and strong enough in melee, as well (despite being still a bit slow, but meh 13 agi).
I would really like to see a video of a 7 PD, 0 effective wpf archer to see how small the reticule gets and how long you can hold it. I can't imagine it.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Bothersome_Aldryk on January 14, 2011, 06:27:15 am
My str built twohander uses heraldic transitional and medium other armors. He does okay for gold. My main wears 40k in equipment and consistently earns money. *shrugs* Just ditch extra weapon slots if you need money and wear leather gloves.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: AirPhforce on January 14, 2011, 07:10:45 am
I tried going with Cuir Bouilli over Mail, 10 k my bec 7k, my Barbutte 2.3 k and leather gloves and shoes and ended up losing cash.  :cry:

You got unlucky. Like I said, we simulated 1000 games and you can hold 40k in gear easy. It went pretty low and pretty high at times, but it always leveled out.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Bobthehero on January 14, 2011, 07:56:11 am

Strength Builds:

 unless you are a die hard fan.

+

1 Handers:



Works oh so wonderfully well, I get many 1 hit kill with a stab in the face, guess having light armor and stacking agi doesnt pay off as much as some would think.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on January 14, 2011, 09:10:21 am
I tried a strength build after the patch reset and I just cannot work with it.

I have PS 8 and IF 6 with 24 strength. I was going to go higher strength but I felt so damn slow, I started to pump agility. I still get one shotted by some people and 2 shotted by throwers. I also definteily rarely one-shot anyone. Usually only those overhead shots can one shot anyone. Some polearmers can still one shot me with a left/right swing. The problem I have is that once I miss, I am dead. I feel so slow that any polearmer still swings faster than me and 1H just stun locks me to death.

I know some people have success with this but I just cannot make it work for me. It feels like everyone has super high agility against me. The higher hitpoints isn't that much higher and the possibility of a one-shot not that much greater, to lose agility.

Maybe if you go 30 str but I don't think I could take being that slow.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Sofa_King on January 14, 2011, 09:36:30 am
    I wonder how the hell u dare to spam ur weapons this days. Most of ppl are using light armors today, and look the C-RPG's old forum, ppl complain about tincan spamming their mighty sword all the way from their spawn to enemy's spawn; and the reason y ppl dont complains in C-rpg is the ppl with light armor and spam. Because theres no possible ways for them to spam like a mad cow, they might get a few kill, but im sure they cant take a hit. So stop whinning about the patch, the patch is great, it solved all the complains in the old forum. And btw, dont complain about the throwing ppl all around, before the patch, ppl dont even want to be a thrower, because it might be as powerful as now, but xbow can 1 shot ppl, and high wpf archers have pinpoint accuracy and high damage like Kesh, he can 2 shot any tincan, and 1 shot any unarmored horse, then only the poor thrower left, it does have the high damage, but only throwing lances can 1 shot ppl and it requires high Str, but the problem is, it doesnt have the range of xbow and bows, and it also dont have the accuracy. So right now chadz balanced it which is made this game more fair and more realistic, obviously only longbow and xbow can go through a plate(which is y english longbow was so famous in that period), btw the throwing lances are real too. During the norman conquiring England, they use their lance to thurst or throw, so dont complain the weapons and armors are not real in this game, it was all real. so STOP COMPLAINING, IT IS FAR MORE REALISTIC AND FUN THAN THE NATIVE. :)
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: EponiCo on January 14, 2011, 09:45:25 am
Eh, there were loads of peasants with franciscas and darts on the siege server before the patch, waiting to level up to jarids and throwing lances. Of course since archery was going to be nerfed and everyone said throwing is going to be OP after the patch.  :twisted:
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Kalam on January 14, 2011, 10:07:22 am
I'm sorry Formless, but you cannot be more off the mark in terms of melee. Most people (myself included) have been converting to strength builds or reducing the agility because, let's face it, agility isn't what it used to be unless you grab a polearm or a longer 2hand and spam until someone who can block thrice in a row rolls you. Have you noticed the increased amount of blunt weapons and throwers? Those are mostly strength builds, brah.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Ganon on January 14, 2011, 10:25:39 am
I tried a strength build after the patch reset and I just cannot work with it.

I have PS 8 and IF 6 with 24 strength. I was going to go higher strength but I felt so damn slow, I started to pump agility. I still get one shotted by some people and 2 shotted by throwers. I also definteily rarely one-shot anyone. Usually only those overhead shots can one shot anyone. Some polearmers can still one shot me with a left/right swing. The problem I have is that once I miss, I am dead. I feel so slow that any polearmer still swings faster than me and 1H just stun locks me to death.

I know some people have success with this but I just cannot make it work for me. It feels like everyone has super high agility against me. The higher hitpoints isn't that much higher and the possibility of a one-shot not that much greater, to lose agility.

Maybe if you go 30 str but I don't think I could take being that slow.

I am doing that, going for 30 str/10ps to be able to oneshot people. It's true if i miss it's a huge problem, but learning to manually block and not miss is part of this build. The best situation is to block the first enemy blow, then hit and win.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Leshma on January 14, 2011, 12:05:34 pm
I love people who think that IF is useful skill and that STR builds are now obsolete.

I bet they still refuse to use heirloomed weapons because upkeep is soo high :rolleyes:

Clueless twats.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Helrekkr on January 14, 2011, 12:18:03 pm
I don't think STR stacking is anywhere as usefull as AGI stacking though.

I used the calculators and going from a 15 STR / 24 AGI build to 27 STR / 12 AGI (5 PS -> 9 PS) only increased damage done  by around 5-10 on a ~40 armor target.

That's not worth the huge loss of overall speed and WPP in my opinion.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Erasmas on January 14, 2011, 05:09:41 pm
It is really good that you did not even mention xbowan, as this species is close to extinction.

As to the analysis: extremely expensive, in particular if you consider that xbowman needs a hybrid build, i.e. all weapon slots always need to be filled in by 1h, shield, xbow and bolts. Also, it is now rarely used as emergency shotgun with 0 WPF - someting that have to be accounted as plus. Change of policy regarding WPF effect may slower the extinction process, as the real xbowman have always used them, and now WPF really influence accuracy. Nerf to damage is intimidating, in particular if you take into the consideration the load speed. Some may say that xbow got its proper function after patch: infantry support. Game-wise it is deadly for the class, as every player wants to have some frags with its principal weapon. Let's face it: if someone puts decent number of WPF in xbows it means that it one's a favorite weapon. And in fact the number of xbows on the battlefield is clearly lower now.

Detailed calculation:

Assuming that 25k is a limit for upkeep with x1 multiplier (and my experience shows it really is), if you want to use Siege Xbow + steel bolts, you have 5,5k left for armour, 1h, and the shield, i.e you have to sacrifice armour (which has particular importance to xbowman due to loading time when you cannot move) to get mid-tier 1h and lower/mid tier shield. 

With Heavy Crossbow + steel bolts, it is slightly better: ca 11k for rest of equip. Sounds like low level armour (1k) + decent 1h and mid level shield. Heavy Crossbow, however, has limited power.

And if you consider that pure 2h build needs armour and 1 piece of weapon only, you (xbowman) are facing guys in chain/lamellar armour (often pumped with IF) and very decent weapon.... and this is the moment where lowered damage comes to create frustration.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Leshma on January 14, 2011, 05:15:22 pm
Heirloom an xbow, you'll be suprised :wink:

Tho, I hope they are gonna fix that.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Erasmas on January 14, 2011, 05:32:41 pm
Which one? I'm really considering that...
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Boss_Awesome on January 14, 2011, 07:01:21 pm
You can upkeep over 30 - 40k gear and still make money.  Gothic plate is 25k.  You can wear plate every round if you don't go overboard on other stuff.  I think STR builds are more effective post patch because agi builds kinda cap out and people with agi builds don't hit as hard as they did pre patch. 
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: balbaroth on January 14, 2011, 07:05:00 pm
Heirloom an xbow, you'll be suprised :wink:

Tho, I hope they are gonna fix that.

light crossbow heirloom +1 modif gain like 12-15 pierce  ( working as intended ? ) obviously a huge huge damage increase
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: StanleyPain on January 14, 2011, 08:00:43 pm
light crossbow heirloom +1 modif gain like 12-15 pierce  ( working as intended ? ) obviously a huge huge damage increase

This would explain a thing or two.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: AirPhforce on January 14, 2011, 08:03:17 pm
You can upkeep over 30 - 40k gear and still make money.  Gothic plate is 25k.  You can wear plate every round if you don't go overboard on other stuff.  I think STR builds are more effective post patch because agi builds kinda cap out and people with agi builds don't hit as hard as they did pre patch.

Exactly. Neither straight strength or power strike have a diminishing effect. Agility itself does not, but weapon master really does. One skill point past 6 and you get less then a 10% WPF increase with each investment.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Vygar on January 14, 2011, 08:04:20 pm
I am leaning for an STR heavy 1h/Shield build stopping at about 12agi.  So far, I've been doing pretty well once I figured out how to facehug 2h/Pole users.  The Shield really seems to interfere with the speed of the weapon swing though that may be hallucination.  I'm sitting at 15/12 currently.  Is heavy armour really going to affect my game for the better or can I expect positive results from my Kettle Helm, Brynie, Military Pick, and Huscarl shield configuration?
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Danath on January 17, 2011, 06:38:36 am
Haven't read the rest of the replies (probably all worthless), but great post by Formless, clearly this guy knows what his talking about.

And good point about the bar mace, one player in our server DESTROYS everyone with his Unblockable bar mace. Crushes through huscarl shields with ease. How that thing escaped a nerf is beyond me.

Good remaining points. Throwers are a plague now. Archers are just mildy annoying as always. Cav have disappeared, too expensive. Except for Palfrey and Rouncey.

Also 25 agi katana builds are a plague now also. I don't even try to fight them without a shield. They swing faster than I can click.

I am a hybrid polearm / 1h+shield build and I die a lot more often with less kills when I take out the german poleaxe instead of the 1h + shield. I am a decent manual blocker before someone makes a smartass comment.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: ViiKOLD on January 17, 2011, 11:42:25 am
Haven't read the rest of the replies (probably all worthless), but great post by Formless, clearly this guy knows what his talking about.

And good point about the bar mace, one player in our server DESTROYS everyone with his Unblockable bar mace. Crushes through huscarl shields with ease. How that thing escaped a nerf is beyond me.

Good remaining points. Throwers are a plague now. Archers are just mildy annoying as always. Cav have disappeared, too expensive. Except for Palfrey and Rouncey.

Also 25 agi katana builds are a plague now also. I don't even try to fight them without a shield. They swing faster than I can click.

I am a hybrid polearm / 1h+shield build and I die a lot more often with less kills when I take out the german poleaxe instead of the 1h + shield. I am a decent manual blocker before someone makes a smartass comment.
Yeah, let's nerf every weapon if someone is good in using it.
Why 25 agi katana build? You mean 24 agi? With 24 agi they have 15 str, 18 at most and after nerf they use weapon that dosn't have real benefit, 102 speed dosn't change outcome of the fight that much for agi builds. There are other 2h swords that are way better than katana - miadao with higher reach and higher cut for the same price, heavy bastard sword for similar stats but 2 times cheaper.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: Cyclopsided on January 17, 2011, 11:48:05 am
when I retire I'll be going only strength, no agility.
Oh my god strength builds are amazing now, I run around with 5 arrows or 3 javelins in me and keep moving, while everyone else gets 1 or 2 shot by everything.
Title: Re: Analysis of Crpg
Post by: FICO on January 17, 2011, 02:09:00 pm
how really looks crpg now:

twohanders:
archers, cavalry and throwers are overpowered. NERF THEM! polearm users have too long polearms

onehanders:
throwers, cavalry and twohanders are overpowered. NERF THEM! archers are pain in the ass when some overpowered twohander brakes my shield. polearms have too big reach

archers:
we got underpowered. so either everybody needs nerf or we need more power!!!

ETC...

 
to sum it up:

                                                        2handers              1handers              archers                cavalry               throwers            polearm
how they are perceived                  overpowered          overpowered       overpowered      overpowered     overpowered   overpowered
how they perceive themselves       underpowered       underpowered     underpowered    underpowered   underpowered underpowered
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
sum                                                        0                                  0                         0                          0                    0                         0

if i ("+have"? my english is rather "rough") forgot someone, please tell, so i can do my very complex research and publish results