Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Socrates on January 04, 2011, 12:03:54 am
Not half bad at all for a first map. Not too big where people can get lost and frustrated so a + on that. Looks a little empty around the castle thats all. Maybe expand it a little more it may seem too small and crowded if you have a lot of players playing it.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: cmp on January 04, 2011, 12:04:57 am
Looks a bit too "regular", if you know what I mean. Still, quite nice and fits well with the other castle maps.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Kafein on January 04, 2011, 01:13:14 am
It's not too small imo, but watch the spawn points. Defenders shouldn't spawn directly on walls, but should also have enough time to reach them before the attackers.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Tholgar on January 04, 2011, 01:37:57 am
Looks good, keep it up! Sieges need more maps.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Ishar on January 04, 2011, 01:50:28 am
I like it! Several choke points where the defenders can hold the line, opportunities for ninja tactics, etc. You could add a few trees, rocks or something to the surroundings, it does feel a bit empty. Maybe a small lake or river? Nothing to do with the actual siege, just for scenery.
Only one major problem: ladderspam. The map looks like it can be exploited exactly like Jameyyed Castle or whatever that shit's called. It seems like the attackers can easily make a chain of ladders to the flag. That's not really your fault, it's the broken ladder system. I hope that gets a fix soon.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 04, 2011, 04:21:48 pm
Thanks for the feedback guys. I know it seems a bit empty, maybe I have to restart the terrain, as I'm not really happy with it. It's kind of hard to paint snow terrain, because you can't really see any height difference in all this whiteness. I know that I should prettify it by adding more visual fluff.
About the ladder spam...I don't really know what to do against it. It seems that currently, small enclosed spaces can just be expoited. I purposely tried to build only a small castle, though, because I'm going to use it on a smaller LAN-party sometime. Defenders all spawn in the inner castle. Perhaps they don't have enough time to defend against a horse rush to the first ladder. This could be changed by moving the ladder somewhere else.
Maybe it's too much to be asked, but it would be cool if one of the cRPG servers could host experimental maps from time to time, because game balance is not really something you can get right when you can't play it with 50+ players.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Connasse on January 07, 2011, 04:22:06 pm
apply for test on EU_cRPG_4_SIEGE
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Leiknir on January 07, 2011, 04:27:21 pm
Looks nice, but you should add some more vegetation, some snowy bushes to break the vast emptienes of the snow plains
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 07, 2011, 11:15:11 pm
I didn't find any snowy bushes in the props, unfortunately.
Thanks a lot for including the map in the rotation, guys. I've had a chance to play it, and it's generally too hard for the attackers, so gonna change some things. With the reduced time since the patch, it's actually impossible to capture it, now. I DID intend it to be hard to capture, but not like this...
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Ishar on January 07, 2011, 11:55:00 pm
I think the main problem with the map is that the flag can be approached from only one direction. And of course, the fact that there's a gate there doesn't help either. After playing it, I noticed that the pathways are not wide enough: it's fine if you're mostly alone, but with many players, they tend to push each other down. I still like the basic concept, with a little tweaking, it could be a great map.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 08, 2011, 02:12:22 am
Thanks for the feedback. I'll add two more ways to enter the inner castle and will scale the walls a bit, so that there is more space on the wallways. I'm also moving half of the defenders' spawn points to the outer castle, so that they can reach the outer walls before the attackers are already up. And lastly, I'm shifting the attackers' spawn points a bit more towards the main gate.
I'll also try to work a bit on the terrain, if possible.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 08, 2011, 04:02:29 pm
Okay, I've removed the inner doors and added two new ways to enter the inner fortress. I've also scaled the width of the walls by 1.5, switched the siege towers and moved spawn points around a bit. Should be much easier to attack now.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Airith on January 09, 2011, 10:10:59 am
Putting it up for testing on NA siege.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Blaint on January 09, 2011, 01:32:47 pm
+nice map for archers, xbows +good to defend -to hard to capture -only one way to flag
i played it, but the map seems to be not balanced enough.
For the attackers it is to hard to capture the castle, beacause they have to run a long way to the flag, and the defenders spawn arround it. There should be an other way to the flag as the strong wood gate.
but all in all the map is good. we need more maps for siege!!
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 09, 2011, 09:40:20 pm
Thanks for your feedback. I already removed the wooden doors and added two more ways to the inner castle.
Thanks for testing it on NA_Siege. My ping is horrible, there, so some feedback of others would be nice...
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 10, 2011, 11:01:22 pm
I've had another chance to play it, and at least with 40 ppl on the server, it was pretty balanced. If the defenders stuck together, they could hold it, otherwise the attackers won. I've seen someone get stuck on one of the stands, so I'm going to fix that. Some more feedback? It's on EU_cRPG4, btw..., thanks again, Pecores Clan.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Ishar on January 11, 2011, 10:39:10 am
I played it again, and the defenders actually lost twice. Still, the attackers are pretty much screwed with balanced teams. Possible problem: The players can't go around whole castle, some tower blocks the path at the back, near the flag. If you remove that, the attackers could reach the flag form the opposite direction. To prevent the absolutely gay 'jumping down' method, there could be a fence there or something.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 11, 2011, 09:02:16 pm
Hmm, why do you think the attackers are screwed? Are three entries not enough? Or is it because the flag area is too compact? Is the distance from spawn to flag too long? I'm not sure, if I can simply remove the keep. Every castle needs a keep.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 13, 2011, 02:51:41 am
I've upped a new version with closer spawns for the attackers and the fix for the stuck bug on the snowy stands: http://node23.net/khirin_castle_v3.zip
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Ishar on January 13, 2011, 02:54:01 am
Oh, forgot to mention. The entry point for the siege tower is a bit... interesting. Is that intended?
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 13, 2011, 03:52:03 am
Do you mean that the door doesn't fully open? Yeah, I wanted the defenders to not be able to go into it from above. Also, as an attacker, it needs a leap of faith, as you can't pull back after the drop.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 14, 2011, 10:30:22 pm
The third version is still to hard to attack. It can be done with coordinated effort, but the usual skirmishes lead to 3x win for defenders. I think I have to redesign the castle interior a bit.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 14, 2011, 11:39:40 pm
I have mixed feelings about this map. Its easy to zerg up the left ladder (from the attacker perspective), open the gate, and smash up the defenders. Maybe it was just the teams I was playing on, but every time I play it the attackers almost always win. However, I will say its a nice design and layout overall. Perhaps you could put up some fences and barriers to keep attackers from jumping down to the flag from the wall, which was how they won almost every time for me.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Ishar on January 15, 2011, 12:55:11 am
Perhaps you could put up some fences and barriers to keep attackers from jumping down to the flag from the wall, which was how they won almost every time for me.
Without that, it's impossible.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 15, 2011, 03:21:46 am
I'm confused now...did you say it's too easy for the ATTACKERS? I've seen them win only once so far...
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 15, 2011, 06:24:10 pm
Someone else told me in chat today that he also thinks it's too easy for the attackers. This is contrary to my experience, where defenders mostly win 3-0, or 2-1 if they don't pay attention for 1 round. Maybe the map is also hosted on servers with longer time limits?
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 16, 2011, 06:20:23 am
NA has around 6 or 7 mins I think. And yeah, I've only seen defenders win maybe a third of the time...but maybe it was just the teams we got from autostack.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on January 16, 2011, 11:00:58 pm
I can always readd the doors, of course, but I think I will play some more before I decide what to do. I actually already planned to redo the whole castle interior and make the inner castle less crowded, so it's easier to fight in for the attackers...oh well, I guess balancing is the hardest task of map development.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on February 04, 2011, 11:07:43 pm
I've put a new version of the map up. I've worked on the spawns and added a backdoor that leads directly into the inner castle. To compensate, I've readded the doors to inner castle. But I've also put up a variation without inner doors, if they turn out to make it too hard for attackers. Last but not least I've added lots of trees and other visual fluff.
http://node23.net/khirin_castle_v4_doors.zip
http://node23.net/khirin_castle_v4_nodoors.zip
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Kong Ming on February 04, 2011, 11:44:30 pm
Keep up the good work Zagibu, siege maps are 10x harder than battle because balance is so crucial. only through time and testing.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Mylet on February 18, 2011, 08:57:55 pm
I added the version with doors to eu5 and eu6.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on February 19, 2011, 01:26:56 am
Cool, nice to see something is moving on these servers :).
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Leiknir on February 21, 2011, 09:07:32 pm
- Siege tower feels "useless" for the time invested to bring it up, I would change its position with the ladder on it's right - The spikes at flag look nice, but it's quite easy to get stuck in them. Place some invisible movement blocker on them, so you can't get stuck anymore
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on February 21, 2011, 11:58:54 pm
Good suggestions, thanks. I actually was looking for a reason to touch the map again, because I've noticed defenders sometimes spawn outside in the overturned belfry. Siege spawns are weird.
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: Toffi on February 28, 2011, 05:58:40 pm
I think it's a well balanced map, indeed! Both teams can win if they concentrate on the key positions!
Title: Re: Siege Map: Khirin Castle
Post by: zagibu on March 05, 2011, 04:41:47 pm
I've tried to fix the defender spawns in the new version: http://node23.net/khirin_castle_v5.zip