cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tai Feng on January 13, 2011, 01:10:08 am
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Alright here it is, I bought charger last week because I had too much money and didn't know what to do with it.
However, I totally fail to see the use of this horse right now. Yes I know, it takes a bit more to die, but I didn't buy it to sightsee places on the map but to kill people.
First, I thought "cool, I'll bump the enemy and cause damage". Then people told me charge damage got nerfed. Alright, so I take my charger to duel server and it turned out that it's doing zero (!) damage to a guy in plate/heraldic (not sure exactly) most of the time, and when it does dmg it's like 5%. Alright.. so it's great vs naked people I guess (so are knives).
Then I try lancing but because of slower speed it's not as satisfying. Alright.
However, right now with this last patch, my Charger barely moves. I can't even ride it. I bet I'd outrun him on foot.
So my question is, who tops the charts with a charger? Or, of what tactical value it is? How do I use it, where do I use it?
I can get to #1 in kills with my Courser, but with Charger I can't do anything. I know I'm not a cavalry player but surely there's some use of this horse that moves faster in reverse.
I'll try hafted blade and bump n slash to see how it goes. Unfortunately I have no 1H proficiency.
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I feel your pain. The day the patch came out, I finally had enough money to buy a Charger. I was so excited because I had been saving up for weeks to buy the pretty looking horse. So I did.
Quickly, I found out that I much preferred my destrier/rouncey backup to the charger. For one, the upkeep was over 3k; secondly, the speed was awful. What the hit points/armor did to increase its survivability, it's inability to escape from arrow fire ended up getting me killed more than anything else.
That being said, it was a good shieldwall-breaker, so long as none of them had a pike (which everyone seems to nowadays). I remember charging a group of 3-4 shielders, bumping them, and a few would get dropped from arrows.
Taking all this into consideration, I'd recommend heirlooming a courser/destrier a couple of times and using that instead. Chargers are overrated and overpriced, IMO.
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A long cut or crush weapon i would say.
Chargers own people in village streets with a good cut/crush weapon just bumping and slashing through enemy foot soldiers.
Although alot of people seem to carry poles now, jsut be carefull for those.
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A long cut or crush weapon i would say.
Chargers own people in village streets with a good cut/crush weapon just bumping and slashing through enemy foot soldiers.
But did you test that, or is it theorycraft? I am not asking here for theorycraft but for people who actually make it work in practice.
In practice, Charger moves so slow that any half-competent 2H guy can half-sword you if you have cut/crush weapon, any polearm can poke you too (and plenty of those), you move so slow every arrow and bolt will stick not into your horse but your body because you move too slow to dodge.
Slow speed also means you cant bump as many people - your horse will come to a full stop. You move too slow to get proper speed boost for your weapon.
All in all, on what server can I watch Charger players to learn how to do it.
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But did you test that, or is it theorycraft? I am not asking here for theorycraft but for people who actually make it work in practice.
In practice, Charger moves so slow that any half-competent 2H guy can half-sword you if you have cut/crush weapon, any polearm can poke you too (and plenty of those), you move so slow every arrow and bolt will stick not into your horse but your body because you move too slow to dodge.
Slow speed also means you cant bump as many people - your horse will come to a full stop. You move too slow to get proper speed boost for your weapon.
All in all, on what server can I watch Charger players to learn how to do it.
The Fallen Ones regularly feature Plated and normal Chargers. Maybe every 4-5 maps if the terrain is suitable.
Heavy Horses are like bombers, you can't fly without a formation because you just get shot up. Fighters just need a good wingman or some cloudcover to get the drop on unsuspecting foes.
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So the bump damage is "zero" yet people die by horsebumps on servers.. hmm mystical.
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The nice thing about the charger is that it can take a lot of damage. It's fast enough to outrun infantry just fine. Bump damage was never good for much besides killing peasants anyway, or extremely wounded people. I really never got how those things killed so many people. You may want to try a morning star, its got high damage so you don't need a super fast speed to get kills. The real problem i found with this horse after the patch was the large amount of light cavalry. I would take my charger out for a spin and get mobbed by 5 enemy coursers who would just take me a part. I get way more kills with a fast horse.
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Regarding speed, I can not say much, but that horse bumping got damaged nerfed was kinda necessary IMO ... now you actually need to do something to kill ppl instead of running over them 2 times and they die while carrying 4 shields (*waves @ elephant rider*).
And plz dont come again with your "realism" ... this is a game ... it's all about balance, not reality ... and causing 50% on heavy armor by just riding over them like it was before had nothing to do with balance or skill or anything, it was just rediclious.
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The real problem i found with this horse after the patch was the large amount of light cavalry. I would take my charger out for a spin and get mobbed by 5 enemy coursers who would just take me a part. I get way more kills with a fast horse.
like destroyers against battleship. you need an escort
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And plz dont come again with your "realism" ... this is a game ... it's all about balance, not reality ... and causing 50% on heavy armor by just riding over them like it was before had nothing to do with balance or skill or anything, it was just rediclious.
Woooooh, cool down Yaron. Is Tai Feng whining ? He's not. Instead of the usual complaints, this guy decided to ask for some advice. If you want to help hip, do so, but stop slapping his fingers goddammit.
So the bump damage is "zero" yet people die by horsebumps on servers.. hmm mystical.
I read "zero damage in heraldric/plate", do you know of lot of people using them every round nowadays ? The vast majority of the players is now in light/medium armor.
Regarding this horse's use, I guess you need to be a real specialized cav to get the most out of it, since the charge damage multi has been drastically reduced.
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The thing about chargers and plated chargers especially is that 99% of people will never take their eyes off you if they are within 10 seconds running distance.
Here is a text reenactment of how it goes down:
:twisted:: Oh LOL here comes Lady Gaga on her stupid rhino, gonna own this bitch. No skill, just money.
:twisted:: Ah, she got away, atleast I hurt her horse with my Katana, let me get out my crossbow and BOOM HEADSHOT a hoe.
*half of team gets lanced from behind by knights on coursers*
:evil:: UGGGH NO SKILL, JUST MONEY.
Morningstar is not that great of a heavy cav weapon anymore, due to no crushthrough.
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Regarding speed, I can not say much, but that horse bumping got damaged nerfed was kinda necessary IMO ... now you actually need to do something to kill ppl instead of running over them 2 times and they die while carrying 4 shields (*waves @ elephant rider*).
And plz dont come again with your "realism" ... this is a game ... it's all about balance, not reality ... and causing 50% on heavy armor by just riding over them like it was before had nothing to do with balance or skill or anything, it was just rediclious.
I d love to quote Gnjus here but you are my friend so I dont.
Some facts: I already kill more enemies with my retired low level polearm and the cheap heavy saddle horse than I did as Black Knight on the heavy plated charger for almost 100.000 gold.
Even with 54 horse charge I couldnt kill a naked guy with 1 bump, a guy with decent armor I had to hit 3-4 times at full speed while, in the same time, you coward my old friender were hiding and 1-2 shot-killing 15 enemies.
I have never seen a pure elephant rider with earth shaking kill death ratios.
Everyone with an idea/ some experience how to play as lancer knows that Sarranid, Courser or destrier are the way to go.
Unfortunately, all the people who call the shots hate horses. Indeed, they get mad when some horseman injures them before they can finish kill number 20 without dying.
What can I say..............it seems to be too much to ask to carry a polearm and look around instead of mindless charging/ shooting.
Some more facts: one (1) throwing lance is enough to kill the heavy plated charger. is that the balance you are talking about? i have to pay upkeep almost 5.000 gold each round for my horse even if it should survive the round and some skill-free throwing spammer can easily kill it due to its huge hitbox.
also, due to the friendly bump you cant even use the horse to help your teammates because those incompetent footmen tend to dance instead of holding the fucking line.
result: charger, even the normal one, but all heavy horses are just good in burning your money, if you have too much gold. otherwise, totally useless, but who cares. we dedicated cavalrymen, we noblemen, we know we have more skill and are the better men anyway, so dont mind the lame pedestrians.
Some advice: use the charger only on cav-okay maps such as ruins or some sarranid village perhaps. The ground needs to be really plain. Use the light lance. Attack archers, stab them in the head. Get your fellow light cav to protect you from enemy cav. If there are no competent cavmen in your team, then stick with the infantry. Stay back. Wait for your infantry to charge, then attack from the other side. Like all cav, its best to kill pedestrians that are not aware. Archers, crossbowmen, dreamers, thats your targets.
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1. I am not a cavalry player. I play all classes but am mostly infantry player. I am not asking here for cavalry buff, I am merely asking why Charger that costs entire fortune is actually *reducing* the effectiveness of a player instead of increasing it. As a general rule of thumb, a player should be more effective with better gear. If more expensive gear is not an advantage over cheaper one, then something is wrong.
2. Charger is absolutely horrible now. It isn't worth 10k let alone 50k.
Let's see what is different since old cRPG:
a) reduced charge damage by a lot
b) reduced speed in last patch
c) arrows partially do cutting damage, but throwers are like locusts, and tons of people carry thrusting polearms because of how cheap they are
d) despite what all the irrational whiners on the forum say, everyone can afford good armor with current upkeep, and chargers do almost no damage to people with good armor; the charger will do some damage to naked people but so will courser - as a matter of fact against naked semiactives/inactives courser is much much better.
I was testing charger some more today and you wouldn't believe but: charger lost all remaining 80% of health from a single throwing axe, which is a cutting weapon. Head or no head, I personally think it's ridiculous. Even from cutting weapons such as swords, charger loses a LOT of damage even while slowly moving (game calculated speed bonus in a very weird way, for example, you could be very very slowly moving on a horse and still inflict some kind of huge damage, or get huge damage at yourself).
The horse is utterly and completely useless. When I take it, I feel crippled instead of empowered.
I have not tried it with 1H but if someone did - does it work for you?
Most people think there are no chargers on the battlefield because of their cost, but people *would* use them if they were any good. I have money, and plenty of other people have too.
ps: And just for the record, and few rounds with pathetic charger performance I had, barely any kills.. I took courser. And lo and behold, I managed to make up for previous bad rounds with charger and got to #1 spot in my team. Now either I am playing with charger wrong, or courser is 5x better and much cheaper. Considering that everyone elses performance is about the same, we can conclude that charger is either a hidden gem or bad horse.
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The charger IS a bumpslasher's horse. It was that prepatch, too, and it was every bit as slow as it is now (but it did deal good trample damage).
But due to the huge number of light cavalry with lances at one point (before the last horse nerf, deserved btw), bumpslashing is falling out of fashion, because many people started to use polearms these days (or throwing, which does sick damage). Your best bet as a slasher is in bigger battles, picking off people who're meleeing / tunnelvisioning, and staying away before that.
If you're a lancer, on the other hand... then yeah, it's a shitty horse.
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bump slash with morningstar or any pierce weapon.
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The charger IS a bumpslasher's horse. It was that prepatch, too, and it was every bit as slow as it is now (but it did deal good trample damage).
But due to the huge number of light cavalry with lances at one point (before the last horse nerf, deserved btw), bumpslashing is falling out of fashion, because many people started to use polearms these days (or throwing, which does sick damage). Your best bet as a slasher is in bigger battles, picking off people who're meleeing / tunnelvisioning, and staying away before that.
If you're a lancer, on the other hand... then yeah, it's a shitty horse.
It was not every bit as slow as it is now, since speed of horses got reduced in last patch.
As you said, there's tons of polearms and throwing - all of these make melee horsing much worse.
At the same time archers do mostly cutting damage which.. is great for charger IF he does nothing and stands still at a distance.
The thing with "best bet" that you said is that Courser does it better. Sarranid horse does it better. Everyone does it better.
Point that everyone is missing
Pre-patch horses did not knock down teammates and damage them. Now they do.
What does this mean? It means that with most other horses you can run in and with surgical precision lance the enemy. Charger.. what is charger going to do that? Run in and pray you don't bump teammates with the huge hitbox it has?
This is one of the key things why charger is now so bad.
bump slash with morningstar or any pierce weapon.
To what server should I come, to see morningstar-charger performance that does more kills (or more team usefulness) than Courser-lance performance?
Do you still use your charger and where can I see it
ps: well I went to your server and you were not using your charger char, nor did anyone else (not surprisingly).
Also, really hate going to NA servers, the level of culture is so horrid that every second chat line has "my old friend" etc.
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If all the horses were to cost the same upkeep, I'd probably take the charger myself most of the time simply to be able to take more arrows before going down. But I'm not a very typical cavalry player. My goal isn't to get solo kills, but rather to do what I think tactically helps the team. So I'll prance around with infantry, forcing the enemy infantry to look at me while they are trying to fight other infantry or else be stabbed and bumped. Or I'll go behind or off to the side of archers to force them to keep shooting at me, and then approach them whenever they ignore me.
With a light horse, I have to be extra cautious, practically hiding away from the enemy archers, either searching for a safe place to fight or picking a good moment to dart in and be effective before the archers and infantry are aware I'm there. With a heavy horse, I can act more like a very mobile version of infantry.
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It was not every bit as slow as it is now, since speed of horses got reduced in last patch.
As you said, there's tons of polearms and throwing - all of these make melee horsing much worse.
At the same time archers do mostly cutting damage which.. is great for charger IF he does nothing and stands still at a distance.
The thing with "best bet" that you said is that Courser does it better. Sarranid horse does it better. Everyone does it better.
I meant pre-upkeep patch - the horses now are about as fast as horses then were, since we all have 6 riding skill nowdays :D
But mostly, what makes it work much worse then it used to are three things:
- much more polearms, mainly to fend off lance cavalry for which you need a polearm, and we had a ton of light cavalry before the latest patch
- throwing, which is largely pierce and does tons of damage, and we have a lot of those now - and if you are going at someone who's got a throwing weapon, your only real hope is that you get to him fast enough before he notices / cannons you
- halfswording mode for twohanders making it even less attractive to try to bumpslash then before
So all in all bumpslashing is much more difficult to do well with, in general. So naturally a horse geared for bumpslashing does worse then it used to... but the real changes to the charger weren't really changes to its stats, but changes to the playing style of people and the mass poliferation of spears, pikes, throwing, etc.
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I considered my toon a "mounted infantry" type horseman. Horse and sword, no lancework, up close and dangerous.
I had an heirloomed Heavy Charger. I wore full plate. I'd slash peasants, ninjas, and archers with my Balanced Espada or crush cans with a morningstar. I carried only one weapon and a Steel Shield into battle.
I'd ride around and get the cheap afk kills now and again, but my main focus is combat support. Upon rollout I'd ride ahead until first contact, then come back and cover the infantry flanks. If I didnt see any polearms, ride into the enemy ranks and stir up the furball just before the grunts arrive. Pullout, assess damage, and assist where needed. K/D ratio and gold no longer seemed to matter much and life was good.
Then the patch hit.
These days I wear a gambeson and ride a Rouncy into battle. But I still swing a Balanced Espada. Everyone carries a polearm and thows shit. So your horses death (and the ensuing chance of repair) is a given. Friendly damage means more horsemanship is required at all times. I'm more likely to abort a strike than risk killing a friendly. Its alot easier to kill my mates and harder to kill the enemy than ever before. chadz even stole my Heavy Charger, not that I got much use out of him lately.
I'd been thinking of selling the Charger for a Destrier, but I keep thinking:
Someday I'm gonna be 5x on a battle server and I'm gonna don the Gothic Plate and ride my Charger into battle alongside other heroes, milking the mutiplier for all its worth.
But for now, I'm on the Peasant Fail Team, wearing cheap gear, leaving the horse in the stable.
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I started a cavalry player around the time the patch came out, and I dare say I frequently top the scoreboard (something that never happened) on cavalry-friendly maps. I ride a courser and heavy lance people. Oh boy to I love my courser :D
THE PERSPECTIVE OF A COURSER-LANCE NINJA WHO LOVES KILLING CAVALRY:
My contribution to this thread: I frequently rape armored cavalry (chargers included). Their horses are REALLY slow, making them easy targets for ass-lancing. I also do alot more damage than they do, for my horse runs faster and thus does more lance damage on impact. I can also out maneuver them, If I slow down. Courser definitly out classes the chargers when it comes to cavalry-on-cavalry clashes, on open maps. Especially if the charger is fighting alone, without the aid of infantry/lighter-cavalry.
HOWEVER. On more tightly-spaced maps I find my butt getting fisted by the few players who use chargers. I simply can't contend with them, since my speed and maneuvering don't count for shit in a tiny space. As Lady Gaga says: bump-slash is your friend. A 1hander on a charger will kick my lightly armored, lance weilding ass if ever I am forced to a stop.
I also notice that chargers working with infantry work very well.
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If all the horses were to cost the same upkeep, I'd probably take the charger myself most of the time simply to be able to take more arrows before going down. But I'm not a very typical cavalry player. My goal isn't to get solo kills, but rather to do what I think tactically helps the team. So I'll prance around with infantry, forcing the enemy infantry to look at me while they are trying to fight other infantry or else be stabbed and bumped. Or I'll go behind or off to the side of archers to force them to keep shooting at me, and then approach them whenever they ignore me.
With a light horse, I have to be extra cautious, practically hiding away from the enemy archers, either searching for a safe place to fight or picking a good moment to dart in and be effective before the archers and infantry are aware I'm there. With a heavy horse, I can act more like a very mobile version of infantry.
Actually it's all the opposite of what you said.
With Courser or even Sumpter you're more a mobile infantry because you're faster, and even if your horse gets killed you're - well - infantry, as long as you recover from the fall.
With Charger, you're neither cavalry nor infantry. You're not mobile infantry because you don't dismount, since that's the entire point of having a charger - to stay on a horse as long as possible. You're not cavalry either - cavalry kills you, horse archers kill you, and you kill no one as you said - you're just sightseeing around.
About usefulness of distracting infantry.. that's certainly good, but often you can distract infantry with any other horse as well. And while you're doing nothing but sometimes distracting, that Courser teammate of yours can kill 5 people easily and distract while he's riding by everyone real fast.
My point here is that no one can actually show how Charger is good, and intangibles such as "distractions" just don't cut it. You're using 70k+ worth equipment for distractions, that just doesn't pay off. If Charger cost the same money as Courser I'd still take Courser.
I meant pre-upkeep patch - the horses now are about as fast as horses then were, since we all have 6 riding skill nowdays
Well doesn't that mean you invest more skill points to be faster? If I understood you.
HOWEVER. On more tightly-spaced maps I find my butt getting fisted by the few players who use chargers. I simply can't contend with them, since my speed and maneuvering don't count for shit in a tiny space. As Lady Gaga says: bump-slash is your friend.
I'd still love to see that. I observed some chargers today and same results as before. LadyGaga had a crossbow and some cheap horse when I went to US server.
The thing with tightly maps is - are you going to use charger there? You *might* get better results in village map from a charger, but would you get better results than from Sarranid, or by going on foot entirely? Sure you might bump in a village, theoretically speaking, but if you try it yourself you'll see that soloing gets you piked, and team-supporting means you cant bump anyone because you'll probably end up bumping your teammate as well or just him with huge hitbox horse.
So I'm merely asking - where can I see this usefulness of a charger? I see usefulness of throwing every round, of coursers/sarranids, of archers, 2H, polearms, you name it. With some players I can see 1Hshield works for them. I see naked people scoring well and doing well. But charger? Where? There are people with 200,000+ gold, it's not that they dont have money. But no one takes charger and those who do, do average at best and can in no way compete with Courser.
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Most of the problem come from the new distribution of riding skill point.
let's say you have 5 riding point . if you take a palfrey you have 2 more riding than requirement so you will go faster and have more maneuverability than the original riding stat of the horse. If you take a charger which is already slower and less maneuverable you don't get that bonus of extra riding skill compared to requirement.
So the difference in maneuverability and speed is just to great between heavy and light cav making heavy cav obsolete.
It' s because high riding skill is possible that horse have been nerfed, but the one that really got nerfed were heavy cav.
A solution would be to lower riding skill requirement for heavy cav to even it out.
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charger is ok for lancing but mainly excells at using a swinging weapon
you can ride in close and punch someone without having to worry about your horse being one shotted.
unfortunately, since they removed horse swing on bec du corbin, i will have to go with a hafted blade i guess.
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my recommendation on how to use the charger. i'm not cav player, but i like teamwork and tactics.
anyone who ever played medieval TW 1 or 2 knows what was the use of heavy horses. they are incredibly expensive, so you have to save them. they are used for "hit and run" usually on flank of infantry already engaged in combat. that way they are going to score most kills. also very usable against archers as they are more armoured than light cav. another use of heavy cav is when enemy is trying to regroup. (killing retreating and running away).
so what's with light cav? you can picture it as in naval warfare - you have few big mighty battleships and little fast ones that guard the big bully. also very useful to lure foolish enemy infantrymen out of ranks.
cav archers? well... they are annoying. and they are good at it. and they are used for it.
as i said before. now teamwork is essential if you want to be efficient at any build you want
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my recommendation on how to use the charger. i'm not cav player, but i like teamwork and tactics.
anyone who ever played medieval TW 1 or 2 knows what was the use of heavy horses.
Please no theorycrafting. I absolutely cannot stand theorycrafting. I am searching for people who are *playing with chargers* and *making them work better than alternatives* such as Courser or Sarranid horse.
unfortunately, since they removed horse swing on bec du corbin, i will have to go with a hafted blade i guess.
I'm pretty bad with hafted blade when mounted so it would be best you try it out and let me know the results. For me, it just doesn't work. The entire animation and the way I have to "aim" is driving me nuts. I find it physically painful.
you can ride in close and punch someone without having to worry about your horse being one shotted.
I'm not sure if you're playing with charger or not, but as I said, a single axe can take at least 80% of your chargers xp (in the head I guess). I don't think you have the luxury of cruising near enemy mob, but if it works for you I'd like to see it.
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Horse charge to cause some serious damage requires speed and heavy armord horse is very slow hence the low damage.
Anyway, Plated Charger is the silliest thing in cRPG. Before the patch it took one plated charger to wipe half of the enemy team and ensure victory.
Everyone whines about archers but almost invincible horse that tramples enemies to death is fine. Kind of twisted logic here.
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Please no theorycrafting. I absolutely cannot stand theorycrafting. I am searching for people who are *playing with chargers* and *making them work better than alternatives* such as Courser or Sarranid horse.
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- Don't run into pike
- Avoid a bunch of archers who are aware of u
- Dont waste time chasing one peasant or any other useless targets.
- Enter melee after infantry has engaged
Blackslash, bumbslash, ram.... profit.
If u play it smart u are easily the last one alive and the one with most kills.
With coursers and such it only takes one mistake or a few arrows to down u.
Charger is a tank so use it as one. It ain't a ferrari-courser.
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- Don't run into pike
- Avoid a bunch of archers who are aware of u
- Dont waste time chasing one peasant or any other useless targets.
- Enter melee after infantry has engaged
Blackslash, bumbslash, ram.... profit.
If u play it smart u are easily the last one alive and the one with most kills.
With coursers and such it only takes one mistake or a few arrows to down u.
Charger is a tank so use it as one. It ain't a ferrari-courser.
Can you show all this to me? To what server should I come and when?
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Well prepatch you could grab a light crossbow on your charger and a heavy lance and use those to ward of light anti cavalry cavalry. that courser may be fast, but it is going down after 2 crossbow hits (or a crossbow and a lance). The charger can tank a lance hit pretty well while light horseman would be dehorsed. This works ok now, but obviously not really as viable.
You could also attack clusters of pedestrians, as long as there is one or two pedestrians not paying attention with a readied pike. Run over the unaware pedestrians, side lance the aware ones, and ride through the formation by switching to a close combat polearm like iron staff. You can flail madly as you continue bumping to stagger people, while the enemy has to attack a bit more carefully to prevent tk. Get 2 heavy cav on this and you can plow through most infantry formation, the formation may fall because people think infantry is an I win button and thus do not pay attention.
The reason people die to cav is because they do not pay attention and refuse to bring a pike because they think the pike weight will ruin their perfectly tuned duel character by making it slower. Guess half swording made them happy now. These are the same people who whine about horse speed simply because a few guys had a bit more riding. Do you whine when people get faster with more athletics?
Nowadays with the silly uncalled for horse speed nerf and the return of jumping in front of horses because of very low bump damage, there is no big payoff to escorting one or two heavy cav to an pedestrian mob, while previously the team that did that properly usually won the game. Post patch heavy horses seem to have some utility as a mobile horse archery elevated platform that could take some arrows. If you are moving away while shooting from a heavy horse, arrows do next to nothing in damage. Just avoid other light cavalry looking to couch you.
OT:Using medieval 1 and 2 to form theories? If you use those games as a basis, you would think the optimum medieval army was 4 CMAA, 4 FMAA, 3 pavise, 4 Chi Kn, 1 general. Archer shootout, infantry adavance, cavalry advance GG unless the opponent was using catholic with same setup. No real valid takeaways from that game unfortunately. People were not doing anything fancy with the knights, just simply charging and recharging the enemy since they were so good. How the knights instantly received and followed those orders in the midst of fighting is a big mystery. The purchase and upgrade model used in multiplayer was so bad in med 1, and got worse with sega. Even the simplest beer and pretzel medieval wargame gave a better sense of the period than those 2 games.
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Tai Feng, give me some days to get to a playable level, and I ll show you. They nerfed this (my) playstyle so really really hard because I was too fearsome for those little whiners! Using horse and lance those lamers had to poll me to finally win a round. =)
I will always play the knights class, simply because I love horses.
Dont expect me to be on top of the scoreboard, that wont be possible, but I still can make a difference/ help my team win against all odds.
For now, try this: Guard your archers, and let them guard you. They can take down unarmored horses, and you can protect them from enemy infantry.
Also, get as much riding as possible, its the same as for footmen. A black plate guy with 0 athletics is really slow, with my first generation I had 11 athletics and still could catch most archers (on foot, wasnt a horseman that time.)
15 strength is the max you should go. If you dont want to use heaviest armor anyway, be fine with 12 strength.
Next, its all about awareness. Use the light lance! 1h/2h swinging wannabe-horsemen you can easily kill from distance, even unexperienced lancers you can outmaneuver and stab their horse in the side/ its back. Ah, and of course run away from good lancers / all horse archers in direction to your infantry. Probably they dont have the balls to follow you, and if they do, your infantry will most likely kill them.
A few days, then I am back in the game.
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Well, problem is I'm infantry with Riding skill, my stats are not optimized for pure cavalry. It could be a bit different if I was pure cavalry, theoretically speaking, I dunno. I'll wait till you level then.
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Well, pure cavalry doesnt make sense, because most crpg maps are anti-cav maps. So the build I m working on is/ will be a lancer/ pikeman|long voulge|etc hybrid.
I am working on two other builds, too, have some real stuff to do, you know and so, so please be patienced. I will never ever retire again so I want to make sure its a good build when its finished. Probably it will be 7 ath, 7 riding, 7 weapon master (all wpf in polearms), 5 power strike, 5 iron flesh.
Also, what people fail to understand is that the heavy plated charger is no wonderweapon for a one man show. Its a support weapon. Like in WW2, the heaviest tank could be easily "killed" by some smart footmen. It was only a menace with support from its own smart footmen, then it could make the difference.
Elephant was really really fun. Both as a defense and a offense weapon. Now its only a defense weapon, and horrible hard to use due to the friendly bump. But well, with lance and horse and the same shitty playstyle as always I think I can still get some crybabies to whine about overpowered plated horses lol. =)
Shitty playstyle, thats the key. Help teammates to get the upper hand over the enemies, collect some easy kills on your way, win, thats the same Dima and all other top battle players do. Combat skill helps, and never hurts, but 90 % of all kills of the best battle players are "easy" kills. Like in Mossad. Its not about fighting (skills), actually there is no fighting at all, the goal is to kill before the enemy realizes that you are there.
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well, if we are going to use the total war series as a reference here, I want 18x Greek Phalanx. I can beat anyone with 18 Greek Phalanx
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Hm, watched Ironlake today and with his 1H sword charger worked for him, although he said he never used Courser so a bit difficult to compare.
I should probably try with some 1H weapon, but not sure how it's going to work out since I've no 1H proficiency.
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I dont think wpf has that big influence on horsebacks performance. With 1 wpf in polearms it was (almost) the same as its now with over 100 (all with light lance tested).
And I know 1h/2h works for some on horseback against infantry. Some are quite effective with bump-slash-combo. For me, as I said, there is nothing easier than stab/thrust to archers head, usually a 1 hit kill and not that hard to do. The light lances speed is quite okay, so its possible to kill 2 or 3 in a row. (when they have their "tunnel vision"). Also, I have a strong dislike for shields, so 1h doesnt make sense for me. But thats only personal choice.
Only real problem with 1h on horseback is that you cant defend yourself against enemy lancers. But you could carry a lance as well, thx to the 4 slots.
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OT:Using medieval 1 and 2 to form theories? If you use those games as a basis, you would think the optimum medieval army was...
i presumed that majority of people here are no history phd or history students. that's the reason why i used game as example
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You keep saying you have no wpf in 1H.
What does that mean? Are you saying you have no speed with the 1H weapon and they will out-swing you and hit you first?
But you are the one with a faster mount. You decide the clash point and can time it with your slow low wpf swing. The damage is still controlled by power strike. You can also bump and slash.
Pre-patch, I got equal number of kills to my bow (with wpf about 125) with only 50 1H (I'm a horse archer) as well as lance (only 1 wpf) because I decided the engagement.
Admittedly I haven't been able to afford a Charger/plated elephant yet and only wearing light leather, I'd be a elevated arrow magnet before I could close to use said light lance and 1H (Liuyedao).
Are you saying that post patch the charger speed is nerfed to the amount where you can't control the distance to get them to miss but you to hit, or that even after a bump, your 1H weapon speed due to wpf 1 is too slow to get a hit?
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I've been testing a bit with 1H and it's working a bit better. So in some cases I guess charger might be ok.
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Are u using polearms or swords?
Swords are faster and better vs infantry, but u suck vs other cav with swords so u should just avoid them.
Lances and spears work vs both, but slow speed and cumbersome weapon can hamper u in close situations.
If u can't achieve good K/D with a charger ur tactics are not very good.
Many suck at being cavalry because they are:
- Impetient and get killed
- Think too highly of themselves and get killed
- Do not pay attention and get killed
- Lack situational awareness and get killed
- Take stupid risks and get killed
- Attacks people who are aware of them and get killed
- Charge mindlessly into a crowd, get stopped and killed
- Simply get killed by every stupid mistake possible
Those rules apply to most players mounted or not. Going hotheaded into combat is pretty much the surest way to die and lose. If u keep urself alive and fight battles u can win while tuning ur skills and tactics u can achieve good results.
I remember when I started playing last summer there were few guys at the top of the score list almost always. They weren't there because they carried a huge weapon and spammed everybody. They were there because they were the last ones alive and were highly skilled fighters who were patient and kept themselves alive.
Kids these days after the mod has become very popular are just a bunch of mindless spammers who chase kills and do not pay any attention in defending themselves. Best players have "very high defence skills".
So when u are using ur tank, use it wisely and patiently. First try to survive to the end of the round (while fighting of course) and start tuning ur fighting skills, tactics and awareness. Kills will come to those who can use their weapons. Dead people can't swing.
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Using a charger makes you a high priority target and you should change your playstyle accordingly.
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Dead people can't swing.
it sounds like movie title.
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If u can't achieve good K/D with a charger ur tactics are not very good.
The problem is that I achieve much higher KD ratio with Courser or Sarranid horse than Charger. But I'll leave it at that.. someone else might make better work of a charger.
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The problem is that I achieve much higher KD ratio with Courser or Sarranid horse than Charger. But I'll leave it at that.. someone else might make better work of a charger.
It's really up to you.
Protection vs speed and manueverability.
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If u can't achieve good K/D with a charger ur tactics are not very good.
Did you play with it after the last Ninja cav nerf?
I did.
Almost 5.000 gold repair cost, but I wanted to try my heavy plated charger, and what happened? Some admin tried to kick and ban me because he was thinking I was trying to delay the round.
Indeed, I was riding at full maximum speed..................
Best players have "very high defence skills".
Ah no, not true. Bjord and Phyrex are full offense players. Rush in, kill as many as possible, simple strategy.
On horses, its true, its easiest (only) way to back-stab, and for that, a fast horse (courser) or a horse with good maneuver (sarranid) is best.
Charger, especially the plated one, are outdated.