cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spa_geh_tea on June 25, 2011, 04:08:11 am

Title: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 25, 2011, 04:08:11 am

So, Ive been playing seige a lot.....as usual. Noticed nearly everyone is going back to two hand, with this i have also noticed that there are few to none Shields anymore. Reason being, not entirely sure. Did they drop the difficulty on two hand weapons, cause I have noticed that 2handers wielding weapons that have 9 less speed than my 1h are always swinging a lot faster and a lot harder. So, if difficulty was dropped then that means a lot of people are making agi pumped 2handers.

Anyway restating the question, Did they make any changes to the 2hander class?
If so, why the hell would you do that?
Also, shouldn't this game be primary comprised of shields, polearms, and archers. The two-hander thing should be a little more unique as it was not a weapon of the common folk.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Casimir on June 25, 2011, 04:15:51 am

2h was nerfed in the last patch receiving a damage and speed nerf on almost all top tier weapons.


Its part of the natural cycle of crpg of archer - shielder - 2h - archer

I've noticed plenty of shielders on the battle servers, don't play siege myself though.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Seawied on June 25, 2011, 05:16:08 am

Shielders are still the most common class from my experience on the NA siege server. They're a class that just BEGS to be used in siege.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Dezilagel on June 25, 2011, 10:59:09 am

Quote from: Spa_geh_tea on June 25, 2011, 04:08:11 am

So, Ive been playing seige a lot.....as usual. Noticed nearly everyone is going back to two hand, with this i have also noticed that there are few to none Shields anymore. Reason being, not entirely sure. Did they drop the difficulty on two hand weapons, cause I have noticed that 2handers wielding weapons that have 9 less speed than my 1h are always swinging a lot faster and a lot harder. So, if difficulty was dropped then that means a lot of people are making agi pumped 2handers.

Anyway restating the question, Did they make any changes to the 2hander class?
If so, why the hell would you do that?
Also, shouldn't this game be primary comprised of shields, polearms, and archers. The two-hander thing should be a little more unique as it was not a weapon of the common folk.

Some reasons for ppl playing 2h:

1. It's fun (manual block, range and damage)

2. Throwing was nerfed meaning that pure 2h became a viable class

Also, saying that 2h hits faster than 1h is just pure bs, 1h are currently the fastest weapons in-game. What you probably have noticed is that many (read: all) 2h use footwork and turning to hit faster, harder and from a better angle. You can do this as a shielder too, get a fast shield, get a long sword, stop holding down rmb constantly and start dancing. Read the offensive shielder guide, it's very good.

(click to show/hide)

Or, if you want to be brutally effective without any skill, get a schim and a huscarl, facehug and feintspam left/overhead...

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: [ptx] on June 25, 2011, 11:45:51 am

1h'ers dominate battle, most battle servers anyway. That is, apart from archers.
Also, decent 1h players spam average 2h players with little problem.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 25, 2011, 04:11:49 pm

SHielder is the best class for battle and siege. I don't understand why more player's don't play it.
It is admittedly less fun then manual blocking.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Mala on June 25, 2011, 04:36:20 pm

Time again for some lobby work.
I made some small tests again. Regarding to the speed the most weapon types have some strenghts and weaknesses.
1hand has a quick overhead, but an awfull slow thrust.
2 hand has a quick stab but with a high recovery time.
Polearms have a fast stab but a slow left-toright swing.

It becomes interesting if i add a block, then 2hand are faster then 1hand. Shield speed does not seem to matter. The only difference i got with higher wpf or weapon speed.
So i could counter the shield delay with faster weapons, but these inflict too less damage.
This brings us to another point, the "ouch-factor".

Ok, you wield 2handers with both hand and so you can put more force in your swings and hit harder. Thats fine, but the values are a bit off.
2hand inflichts 40 cut damage on average and with 1 hand i have something about 33 cut.
Not that huge differnce, but if i add powerstrike and wpf, then i have values of 68c vs 57c for a balanced build.

In the end i got some easy blocks (for 10 seceonds) for less reach, less damage and a wonky speed bonus.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Digglez on June 25, 2011, 04:37:21 pm

they raised the requirement of many shields and lowered the hp/armor of popular ones.  they also raised the requirements on several of the 1h weapons that shielders used.

its still easily 2/3's 2hers and 1/3 shielders on NA siege

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Thucydides on June 25, 2011, 06:31:06 pm

qq more one handers and learn just how easy it is to headshot people with overheads and left swings

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Casimir on June 25, 2011, 06:56:12 pm

list for successful 1h

Buy scimitar
Buy Huscarl Shield
Feint Spam
Win

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Gorath on June 25, 2011, 07:03:34 pm

Quote from: Casimir on June 25, 2011, 06:56:12 pm

list for successful 1h

Buy scimitar
Buy Huscarl Shield
Feint Spam
Win

Ugh
You should rename that "List for successful pleb"

So tired of seeing 1hers with the spammitar and scrubscarl combo.  Mil. Cleaver/Langes Messer + Cav shield ftw imo.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 07:14:22 pm

I like how 2h/pole players are whinning so hard about Scimitar/Huscarl.
As soon as I changed my weapon to scimitar I was called a noob spammer who can't block while with my previous weapon I was doing as good and maybe even better, always in the top of the scoreboard, battle or duel server.

The funnier are those 2h/polearm noob who abuse the stun and cry when you kill them on duel server, saying that you can't manual block and when you drop your shield and kill them again they just find another excuse and/or GTX (hint* Aeshma and many others* hint)

Actually this is the opposite, the most skilled 1h players (DimaUrban, many grey's 1h and few other) are quite succesful with this combo but they would rape you as easily with another weapon while a noob 1h with scimitar/huscarl will still be a noob.

People think 1h have less skill because they don't have to manual block but manual blocking is quite easy with some practice and many 1h are better manual blockers than 2h/polenoob.

@Casimir, being a tincan with a spamberge sure require sooooooooo much more skill  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: DarkFox on June 25, 2011, 07:42:43 pm

Sooo many turtles...nerf shields!

(click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Dezilagel on June 25, 2011, 08:07:47 pm

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 07:14:22 pm

I like how 2h/pole players are whinning so hard about Scimitar/Huscarl.
As soon as I changed my weapon to scimitar I was called a noob spammer who can't block while with my previous weapon I was doing as good and maybe even better, always in the top of the scoreboard, battle or duel server.

The funnier are those 2h/polearm noob who abuse stun and whine when you kill them on duel server, saying that you can't manual block and when you drop your shield and kill them again they just find another excuse and/or GTX (hint* Aeshma and many others* hint)

Actually this is the opposite, the most skilled 1h players (DimaUrban, many grey's 1h and few other) are quite succesful with this combo but they would rape you as easily with another weapon while a noob 1h with scimitar/huscarl will still be a noob.

People think 1h have less skill because they don't have to manual block but manual blocking is quite easy with some practice and many 1h are better manual blockers than 2h/polenoob.

@Casimir, being a tincan with a spamberge sure require sooooooooo much more skill  :rolleyes:

Oh but for crying out loud.

This was never a discussion about whatever is ez mode or a flamethread, but it is common knowledge that the hitboxes of schimitars are weird, thus making blocking feintspamming schims a nightmare.

+ The fact that overhead/left (which is the most common feint) both have a very good chance of hitting the head (schims seem to headhit even more often with the leftswing than other weps), making the damage very high aswell.

And now comes the ugly part:

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 07:14:22 pm

@Casimir, being a tincan with a spamberge sure require sooooooooo much more skill  :rolleyes:

I've (And I'm not even close to the best players) faced you (and won) in duel without a shield, and I can tell you that Casimir is a way better blocker than you (ur average at best). So stop spilling that crap. I faced Urban today (with shield) and that was a relatively easy fight (he does not use the huscarl, making it easier to see the attacks). I'm not denying it, all you good shielders are a pain to face, (with a shield, ur gonna kick my ass) but to deny that schim is broken with the argument that 2h are worse manual blockers... It doesn't work out.

And if you say you are doing better with the other weapons (note that you did say yourself that ppl were not calling you a noob before you picked up the broken schim), then why not use them? And how come you have a MW Elite Schim when the other weapons are so much better?

And don't call "abuse" when you are clearly using broken stuff yourself. Yes polestun should be removed, but just because other people are abusing doesn't mean it's a free for all.


 

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

Quote from: Dezilagel on June 25, 2011, 08:07:47 pm

[...]

Please learn to read what other people actually wrote and not only what you want to read then we can talk.

(click to show/hide)

1/ I've been a 1h/shielder for 7 generation and I've tried dozen of 1h (axe, mace, sword) so I think I'm better qualified than you are to tell if a weapon is OP or not. So far I didn't see any of the advantage you listed using the scimitar, sure it's fast but there are many other weapon as good for a 1 handed, just have a look at this thread  (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,7516.0.html)1h are pretty well balanced imo.

2/ Feinting with scimitar is not easier than with any other weapon with the same speed and it don't hit the head more often than any other weapon, I'm actually having much more glance when I try to hit the head than with my previous weapon: the Niuweidao.

3/ I like to change build and weapon and as I already said I tested dozen of weapon and I'm actually testing Scimitar, what's wrong with it ?

4/ I won most of the duel I did against Casimir with other 1h so far even without shield.

5/ I won't answer to your "ugly part" as I find it quite stupid to bragg about killing a 1h (without shield) when as a polearm user you have a huge advantage (reach, stun, damage...) and you're a feint spammer yourself.

6/ This was never a discussion about whatever is ez mode or a flamethread  -> this is not a troll the scimitar users discussion either.

Quote

Or, if you want to be brutally effective without any skill, get a schim and a huscarl, facehug and feintspam left/overhead...

Quote

list for successful 1h

Buy scimitar
Buy Huscarl Shield
Feint Spam
Win

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: BlackMilk on June 25, 2011, 09:32:46 pm

I think 1h and 2h are pretty fine (allthough Scimitar really seems abit imba to me). The problem is that Pole is just OP. I got a Level 30 poler and I swear its ridiculously easy to kill off anything.

See how imbalance the stats of pole and 2h are

(click to show/hide)

Heavy Great Sword
weapon length: 120
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 14
speed rating: 92
thrust damage: 22 pierce
swing damage: 39 cut
Price : 11,701

Poleaxe
weapon length: 141
weight: 3.3
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 89
thrust damage: 31 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
Bonus against Shield
Price : 10,447

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: [ptx] on June 25, 2011, 09:57:33 pm

Just when you feel like 1h is underpowered, go to Ru_crpg ;)

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Dezilagel on June 25, 2011, 11:00:49 pm

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

1/ I've been a 1h/shielder for 7 generation and I've tried dozen of 1h (axe, mace, sword) so I think I'm better qualified than you are to tell if a weapon is OP or not. So far I didn't see any of the advantage you listed using the scimitar, sure it's fast but there are many other weapon as good for a 1 handed, just have a look at this thread  (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,7516.0.html)1h are pretty well balanced imo.

How do you explain then that the majority of shielders are using the scims? I can hardly imagine the Searaiders are using it for looks.

And the advantage is not stat-wise (I know there are equally fast/faster 1h) but in the flawed hitbox, which is stupid imo.

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

2/ Feinting with scimitar is not easier than with any other weapon with the same speed and it don't hit the head more often than any other weapon, I'm actually having much more glance when I try to hit the head than with my previous weapon: the Niuweidao.

No, ofc it's not harder to feint with a scim. It's way harder to defend against scimfeinting. The headhitting part I might agree to (since I've mostly seen it being the recieving end), but what exactly has glancing to do with this? Your point?

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

3/ I like to change build and weapon and as I already said I tested dozen of weapon and I'm actually testing Scimitar, what's wrong with it ?

There's nothing wrong with tesing a weapon, but the issue here is not you using it, but the weapon itself and it's weird properties.

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

4/ I won most of the duel I did against Casimir with other 1h so far even without shield.

So? I merely stated he was a better blocker and that you should cut the bs flaming.

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

5/ I won't answer to your "ugly part" as I find it quite stupid to bragg about killing a 1h (without shield) when as a polearm user you have a huge advantage (reach, stun, damage...) and you're a feint spammer yourself.

I'm not bragging about it, I called it the ugly part for a reason (I did not wish to write it), it was to give a reason for me stating that Casimir (Whom you for no reason at all lashed out at) is a better blocker. (*Moot your dirty 2h/poles are noobs who cannot block") It's just sad that you/your ego cannot take this and immedietly takes this as some kind of universal personal insult. It's my pov, and to me your ranting about all the 2h/pole "noobs" stands moot after both facing you and seeing you fight. Feel free to ignore me, it's just my opinion, but imo your rant is uncalled for and you should step off that high horse and start discussing the balance instead.

So far the only things you have said about schims is that "you like how ppl are whining about them" and that you have "not seen" any of the "advantages" I've listed.

So... Does that mean that you enjoy denying that curved weps have weird hitboxes and watching other ppl complain about it or what?

(As for the thread, yes 1h in general ARE pretty well-balanced, but this is not about item stat-balance, this is about an advantage that imo shouldn't even be there)

Quote from: Kansuke on June 25, 2011, 09:20:33 pm

6/ This was never a discussion about whatever is ez mode or a flamethread  -> this is not a troll the scimitar users discussion either.

Trolling? We merely stated that it is easy to be effectve in combat by using the popular schim/huscarl combo and fenting left/overhead. You should try it! (owait...)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cutting this bs, my point is that weapons with curved blades (most notably the scims due to their design and size/speed) have unfair advantages in ghost reach/difficulty to block. Advantages which either 1: Should not be there (best solution imo), or 2: Needs to be reflected in the stats (which is a bad solution imo, but if 1 is not possible...)

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Mithlodir on June 26, 2011, 03:42:41 am

Quote from: DarkFox on June 25, 2011, 07:42:43 pm

Sooo many turtles...nerf shields!

(click to show/hide)

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+1

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Shablagoo on June 26, 2011, 04:25:32 am

There are easily more 2h/pa than there are shields on na siege.  I would know, being ranged.  If there were more shields I'd have less stuff to kill. 

There really don't seem to be a ton of reasons to go shield.  You can defend against ranged, you don't have to manual block until your shield breaks at the expense of slower blocking, you can hold choke points, you can occupy multiple attackers.  It's mostly team-oriented utility stuff.  2h and PA have every advantage when it comes to actually fighting.  I think there would be more people playing shielders if the scoring system reflected something other than only kills.   

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: cmp on June 26, 2011, 10:10:51 am

For high level dedicated melee characters, the proportion is roughly like this:
32% 1h
40% 2h
28% polearms (including lancers)

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Gurnisson on June 26, 2011, 10:44:32 am

Quote from: Casimir on June 25, 2011, 06:56:12 pm

list for successful 1h

Buy scimitar
Buy Huscarl Shield
Hold left swing for 1 second
Win

Fixed it for you.

Scimitar is a way too strong weapon for its price. You get everything you could want for 4 000 denars.

Title: Re: Question about 2h vrs Shielders
Post by: Diomedes on June 26, 2011, 08:12:31 pm

Quote from: Gurnisson on June 26, 2011, 10:44:32 am

Fixed it for you.

Scimitar is a way too strong weapon for its price. You get everything you could want for 4 000 denars.

Except stab.  Oh, and style

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