cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stokes on January 12, 2011, 02:25:49 am

Title: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Stokes on January 12, 2011, 02:25:49 am
Hey guys,

I've started an Archer alt, but I have some questions for our more experienced archers out there on good builds.

Right now my plan is to go 18str/18agi, with 6 points in weaponmaster and 6 points in powerdraw. From there I want to play with the various bows to find out which I like best. I like the idea of using the slow, massive draw, high damage Longbow, but we'll see. I know most use the Warbow.

The problem is, with higher WPF so much harder to obtain with the patch, will the 6 PD destroy my accuracy if I only have maybe 125-140 WPF in archery? I'd like to be able to put ~100 points into a secondary skill so that I can at least defend myself when enemies get close.

Anyways, what do you guys think? Is the Agi-Archer with low PD a better bet or will I have fun and still be accurate with 6PD and the high tier bows?

Not really liking the whole "higher PD makes you a whole ton less accurate bit, right now.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Miley on January 12, 2011, 02:29:33 am
I say go for what you said.

Pre-patch I had 10 PD and 180 WPF (I've never retired my character, so 10 PD used to help with aim). My aim was much bigger than the agility-stacking archers, but I still got a bunch of kills. It's also more of a challenge, which is fun. You just have to take less accurate shots, but sometimes, it even gets you hits/kills :D
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Stormcrow on January 12, 2011, 02:32:42 am
my advice is to put your agi to  18, then try out the bows as u lvl up on your strength. If you do well with a low tier bow like khergit, leave your strength at 12 and put the rest into agi. If you want a secondary weapon i suggest a maximum of 50wp and put the rest into archery
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: bruce on January 12, 2011, 02:35:24 am
Idk - I'm still fairly lowlevel on mine, but I went str first - now at 21 str with 7 PD & PS and 8 agi (lol). It's inaccurate, in the old crossbow style, but much like you could aim with the old crossbow and hit, you can with the PD archer. The slow firing speed is the suckiest part, but the damage, even with a strongbow (which I'm using at the moment) is solid enough. I'll probably go for a 24 str / 12 agi build in the end.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Miley on January 12, 2011, 02:37:49 am
my advice is to put your agi to  18, then try out the bows as u lvl up on your strength. If you do well with a low tier bow like khergit, leave your strength at 12 and put the rest into agi. If you want a secondary weapon i suggest a maximum of 50wp and put the rest into archery

Also, you do NOT need melee WPF. I did very well without WPF. I even had my tin can armor and went melee when I wanted to! :]
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Stormcrow on January 12, 2011, 02:38:03 am
Never use a higher power draw then you need because it reduces your accuracy. pick a bow and set that for your max strength.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Joxer on January 12, 2011, 02:39:30 am
Get PD as much as your choice of bow requires. Then go all on the WPF. Athletics is good for archer too. Dont waste any WPF on secondary skill. Just get a decent weapon that allows you to do some damage and block quickly. Spears are my fav cause cav loves to sneak up on archers personally.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Stokes on January 12, 2011, 03:36:57 am
Hmm... is there any downside to having a higher PD than the bow you want to use requires? I really want to try out the higher tier bows, just to get the feel for them in CRPG, but I'd hate to level up my PD, decide I want to use a lower bow tier, and then realize that my character that I just spent so much time on is uselessly gimped.

EDIT: For that matter, where can I get information on what WPF actually affects? Does Agility/Str, Powerstrike, or WPF have more to do with my melee capabilities?
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Keshian on January 12, 2011, 05:08:09 am
Post-patch:

The reticule size is significantly larger (half-again to a 1/3rd) if you use a powerdraw matching the bow you are using rather than having 1 powerdraw higher then the requirement for the bow (direct opposite of pre-patch).  It seems to keep decreasing up to about 4 powerdraw over though most significant differences are with 1 and 2.  Highly recommend getting a powerdraw of 2 above the bow you are using (though this comes into some serious low wpf issues with accuracy if you try to do this with either a longbow/warbow).  I have tested this out with multiple archer builds and it holds true for all of them, though you should test this out for yourself using 2 static targets and set location to aim from as you switch between bows.  Zoom in with each bow and feel thew difference, which is the opposite of what you would expect considering the weaker bows have a lower accuracy number.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Miley on January 12, 2011, 05:19:50 am
You can also retire like Kesh 45 times. Lol. Just kidding.

Agility helps with melee speed. Strength adds 1 HP pre point, and you also do more in melee.
Just get 6 Power Draw, and then get as much Weapon Proficiency as you can. Probably get a lower tier bow, and then work up to the 6 PD, so that you're not 6 PD and low WPF. I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: forgivers on January 12, 2011, 05:35:13 am
Post-patch:

The reticule size is significantly larger (half-again to a 1/3rd) if you use a powerdraw matching the bow you are using rather than having 1 powerdraw higher then the requirement for the bow (direct opposite of pre-patch).  It seems to keep decreasing up to about 4 powerdraw over though most significant differences are with 1 and 2.  Highly recommend getting a powerdraw of 2 above the bow you are using (though this comes into some serious low wpf issues with accuracy if you try to do this with either a longbow/warbow).  I have tested this out with multiple archer builds and it holds true for all of them, though you should test this out for yourself using 2 static targets and set location to aim from as you switch between bows.  Zoom in with each bow and feel thew difference, which is the opposite of what you would expect considering the weaker bows have a lower accuracy number.

Hope this helps.
second this,  there seem to be a relation with PD and  Wpf now cause PD 6 with 0 wpf give a whole big aim but also 1pd with 120+ wpf also give a big aim so there must be some kind of formula
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Miley on January 12, 2011, 05:54:42 am
Ya, you should listen to Kesh. I'm sure he knows better than I do, because I do not have a dedicated archer in this post-patch.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Pongest_Lenis on January 12, 2011, 06:19:00 am
For any wanna be Archers this is my short guide to buidling a Archer

First pump all points in to agility even convert your skill points in to stat points and add them to it also then run around and help your team out by beating things with rocks and your knife, when you have 15 agility place a point in to power draw and buy a bow and arrows by this time you should have enough gold, however make sure it is just the basic bow and the best arrows. Then use your skill points to raise your weapon master to 5 as you level and the stat points put in to str do this untill you have 12 str, by now you should now have enough gold for your 2nd bow which will be the one you need power draw 4 for, but dont put points in to power draw just yet place your stats points back in to agility as well as your skill points till your agil is 21 and your weapon master is 7. Then put points in to power draw and get your bow at this point you can then choose increase str more and go for the bigger bows and higher power draw or become an horse archer and put points in to  agility, riding, weapon master, and horse archery. For your first generation I advise you to go full archer this will give you enough money when you come back the 2nd time to play which ever way you want to please give feed back if you use my quick easy guide.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Mouse on January 12, 2011, 07:35:59 am
Post-patch:

The reticule size is significantly larger (half-again to a 1/3rd) if you use a powerdraw matching the bow you are using rather than having 1 powerdraw higher then the requirement for the bow (direct opposite of pre-patch).  It seems to keep decreasing up to about 4 powerdraw over though most significant differences are with 1 and 2.  Highly recommend getting a powerdraw of 2 above the bow you are using (though this comes into some serious low wpf issues with accuracy if you try to do this with either a longbow/warbow).  I have tested this out with multiple archer builds and it holds true for all of them, though you should test this out for yourself using 2 static targets and set location to aim from as you switch between bows.  Zoom in with each bow and feel thew difference, which is the opposite of what you would expect considering the weaker bows have a lower accuracy number.

Hope this helps.

Curious, but this is a pretty big change to make in secret. It'd be nice if this was the case, but can you prove it somehow?
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Keshian on January 12, 2011, 07:43:43 am
Curious, but this is a pretty big change to make in secret. It'd be nice if this was the case, but can you prove it somehow?

Literally anyone can test it out for its veracity, just buy nomad and khergit bow and use your current power draw and show it.  Also can test with strong bow too and warbow.  The higher power draw requirement bows have a higher accuracy rating, but if you test this out near your current power draw level you will see a significant difference between the bow 1 power draw less and the one matching your power draw in reticule size with the lower power draw bow being tighter bya  third.  I used 2 catapults in the distance in a siege map with a set position on a platform where i tried it out.  It doesnt matter which bows so long as near your current power draw.  Make sure to zoom and note the realtive distance. 

Basically highly recommend getting 1-2 powerdraw higher then the bow requirement of the main bow you use, but this doesnt work as well with 6 powerdraw required bows because you still are short on wpf because lower weaponamster so you often have shots go wide, though decently accurate.  Just did 8 powerdraw with my masterwork warbow, maybe it will be better with 7 powerdraw with 6 weaponmaster at level 30 after my next retirement.  If not, then will focus on strong bow or khergit and just have to regret wasting 3 heirlooms.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Lorn on January 12, 2011, 07:44:18 am
Curious, but this is a pretty big change to make in secret. It'd be nice if this was the case, but can you prove it somehow?

It was known as complete BS before the patch, and it still is.

Literally anyone can test it out for its veracity, just buy nomad and khergit bow and use your current power draw and show it.

You do understand that with the same wpf a khergit bow will always have more accuracy than a strong bow right?
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Keshian on January 12, 2011, 08:46:22 am
You do understand that with the same wpf a khergit bow will always have more accuracy than a strong bow right?

Stop trolling and actually test it out for yourself before talking with your ass rather than your mouth.  With the exact same powerdraw and wpf, without the powerdraw being higher then the bow you are using effecting your accuracy, the strong bow would have ever so slightly higher accuracy(see below), but if you test it out the reticule of the khergit is 2/3rds the size of the strong bow at powerdraw 5.  I also tested this just before I raised my powerdraw from 4 to 5 against the static target and it shrank roughly by a third its size once i increased the power draw by 1 for the khergit  (Did same test from pwrdrw 5 to 6 with those 2 bows and warbow, smaller gain on khergit that time, same gain with strongbow).  Also, your reticule size is held for longer in the smaller reticule size the more your powerdraw exceeds your bow's requirement.

Khergit Bow 4978 weight 1.25
requirement 4
spd rtng 65
shoot speed 57
thrust damage 22 cut
accuracy 95 
 
Strong Bow 6580 weight 1.25
requirement 5
spd rtng 63
shoot speed 59
thrust damage 24 cut
accuracy 96 


I took the time to test this several times with several different archer builds.  So far the most effective was 6 powerdraw with khergit (consistently topped boards with that) but im still doing more tests.  I am trying to provide info from that, you can choose to ignore it or use it, its entirely up to you.  I would recommend everyone test it our for themselves as its easy enough to prove.  The other stuff I discovered from testing takes more levelling to prove so I didnt post it, but what I have posted is easily provable with any assortment of bows.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Stokes on January 12, 2011, 11:10:49 am
Thanks for the replies Keshian. I realize this is quite a change from previous patches but it also answers my questions. I'll be sure to test this all during my next play session like you said.

At any rate, this means that I should be able to do my 18/18 build with 6 PD and I'll be able to downgrade to Kherghit bow if I find the higher tier bows don't suit my playstyle and wpf.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: ZMaNFaRLee on January 12, 2011, 04:21:13 pm
Yeah Im going with Keshian....

Man there is gonna be so much QQing over this.  Damage plus accuracy.  Watch out fools!

I might start being good!!!
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: forgivers on January 12, 2011, 05:04:32 pm
It was known as complete BS before the patch, and it still is.

You do understand that with the same wpf a khergit bow will always have more accuracy than a strong bow right?

yeah this time it's true not sure what the problem with both of you ... maybe you should get married, but still, kesh claim is true and

at 150 wpf/7pd strong bow have a better acc the khergit. gonna try 150 wpf and pd8 soon
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: AssPunisher on January 12, 2011, 05:34:20 pm
Thanks guys for all the info. Im building my low lvl archer to PD6 +WM8+ Warbow but now after reading this thread I'm having second thoughts about it. Please report your further testing results, I'm lvl 11 now and can't do much testing myself yet. Thanks!
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: ZMaNFaRLee on January 12, 2011, 05:44:09 pm
whats a good level of athletics for an archer?  When do you stop?
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Keshian on January 12, 2011, 07:02:38 pm
whats a good level of athletics for an archer?  When do you stop?

Whatever your agility allows as maximum, same as weaponamster, but post-patch less push for higher agility so its more limited byhaving a higher strengtha nd lower agility.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: ZMaNFaRLee on January 12, 2011, 07:15:59 pm
Whatever your agility allows as maximum, same as weaponamster, but post-patch less push for higher agility so its more limited byhaving a higher strengtha nd lower agility.

cool I was worried I put to much in.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Cup1d on January 12, 2011, 08:01:11 pm
Quote
at 150 wpf/7pd strong bow have a better acc the khergit

Doubt it.

Tested with my build. 7pd. 152 wpf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRrWUaBlo-Y

Also you can test dispersion of the bows. Just shoot 10-arrows at target with strong, khergit, warbow, longbow.
And think twice before heirlooming your |consumer choice| bow. I found my masterwork warbow (6 pd req. 98 acc. 30 damage) less accurate than standart longbow (6 pd req. 96 acc. 30 damage).
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Maira on January 12, 2011, 08:19:38 pm
Well the strong bow has higher accuracy than the khergit one.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Gafferjack on January 12, 2011, 08:41:58 pm
Thought about posting this earlier. Both of these reticles are unzoomed.

(click to show/hide)

Please excuse my terrible MSPaint mouse-writing.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: Keshian on January 12, 2011, 08:50:41 pm
Doubt it.

Tested with my build. 7pd. 152 wpf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRrWUaBlo-Y

Also you can test dispersion of the bows. Just shoot 10-arrows at target with strong, khergit, warbow, longbow.
And think twice before heirlooming your |consumer choice| bow. I found my masterwork warbow (6 pd req. 98 acc. 30 damage) less accurate than standart longbow (6 pd req. 96 acc. 30 damage).

Yeh, im having the same issue with my masterwork warbow.  Still trying to work around it and get a better build for it.  Am using 8 powerdraw with 137 wpf right now and do okay with it, will go 9 powerdraw this time around, next generation will try with 7 powerdraw and 152 wpf, though I am going to start heirlooming my khergit in the meanwhile.  The higher level bows in general seem to have a few more balancing issues between powerdraw and wpf and their impact on accuracy because of the level cap.

I was also testing dispersion, but thats harder to show as consistently and easily so its more of a feel for me, then something I want to post as certainly correct.
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: TheClash on January 12, 2011, 09:20:43 pm
hello there !

 tought i do not speak english very well i'am not sure i really understand what  some of you say.

so can u confirm me that plz ? :

using a bow like kergit who need 4 pd, with  your  own power draw skill at 6 increase your accuracy ???

i was believe that  the higher your PD is , the most it decrease your accuracy because it drop your archery wpf...

that's why, with the new soft cap at lvl 30 i plan to use template like this :

"Level: 30
  Strength: 15
  Agility: 21 (2 skillpoint was converted)
 
  Ironflesh: 5
  Power Strike: 5
  Athletics: 7
  Power Draw: 5
  Weapon Master: 7"

to maximise my archery wpf.
but i will use a strongbow and not be able to use war or longbow.


 

Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: forgivers on January 12, 2011, 10:50:10 pm
Yeh, im having the same issue with my masterwork warbow.  Still trying to work around it and get a better build for it.  Am using 8 powerdraw with 137 wpf right now and do okay with it, will go 9 powerdraw this time around, next generation will try with 7 powerdraw and 152 wpf, though I am going to start heirlooming my khergit in the meanwhile.  The higher level bows in general seem to have a few more balancing issues between powerdraw and wpf and their impact on accuracy because of the level cap.

I was also testing dispersion, but thats harder to show as consistently and easily so its more of a feel for me, then something I want to post as certainly correct.

right now i have 7PD and 154 wpf, this made the strong bow alot more accurate then with 6 PD 150wpf, 
Now it made the war bow a little more accurate, i can still get either PD8 or WM7 with that build
just cant make my mind between PD 8 wpf 154 or PD7 161 wpf

realy wonder wich 1 ll be the most accurate
Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: bruce on January 13, 2011, 12:32:57 am
There is something in what Kesh is saying. I've got a str-based archer atm, grinding it up for now, so I have only 11 agi (yes, I know, lol), but I have 7 PD. I've got a heirloomed strongbow, and it does okay... but my real surprise was when I decided to try a nomad bow for kicks. Not only was the damage very satisfying, but it was also quite accurate for short-mid range shooting despite, after wpf penalties, etc, and armour, me having practically no wpf. When I have more cash to burn, I'll also try the Khergit.

Edit: tried the Khergit, it really is great with 7 PD.

Title: Re: Questions about Archery, Powerdraw, and Archer builds.
Post by: ZMaNFaRLee on January 13, 2011, 03:09:59 am
yep powerdraw makes aim tighter, I just checked... UBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!