cRPG

cRPG => cRPG Technical problems => Topic started by: zagibu on June 06, 2011, 09:24:25 pm

Title: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on June 06, 2011, 09:24:25 pm

I know, this is probably a native problem, but it seems that everytime a map loads, in the first round, all doors have very low HP, probably because it is scaled with playercount and the round starts as 1 vs 1. This is a big problem on siege, as some maps are very easy to take in the first round by simply cutting open the most direct way to the flag.

If the door HP is scaled with a python script, it should be easy to implement a 10 sec delay or something. I'm going to dig through the scripts a bit, but maybe some dev already knows the exact place where it could be inserted?

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: Digglez on June 07, 2011, 12:35:55 am

I'd love to see this fixed as it really fucks game balance on siege maps.  There are certain maps that is pretty much guaranteed loss if you are defense first round

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 07, 2011, 09:37:23 am

Door HP increases every round.

Siege towers progressively get taller between ramp to platform, causing jumping to be harder and harder, up until outright impossible on some maps.
As far as i Know, it is some weird game engine glitch.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on June 07, 2011, 03:39:22 pm

I think I have found the correct location in module_scripts.py:

Line 8189 onwards

Code: [Select]

  #script_initialize_objects
  # INPUT: none
  # OUTPUT: none
  ("initialize_objects",
   [
     (assign, ":number_of_players", 0),
     (get_max_players, ":num_players"),
     (try_for_range, ":player_no", 0, ":num_players"),
       (player_is_active, ":player_no"),
       (val_add, ":number_of_players", 1),
     (try_end),

     #1 player = (Sqrt(1) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1200, 1800 (minimum)
     #4 player = (Sqrt(4) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1400, 2100
     #9 player = (Sqrt(9) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1600, 2400
     #16 player = (Sqrt(16) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1800, 2700 (general used)
     #25 player = (Sqrt(25) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2000, 3000 (average)
     #36 player = (Sqrt(36) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2200, 3300
     #49 player = (Sqrt(49) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2400, 3600
     #64 player = (Sqrt(49) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2600, 3900

     (set_fixed_point_multiplier, 100),
     (val_mul, ":number_of_players", 100),
     (store_sqrt, ":number_of_players", ":number_of_players"),
     (val_sub, ":number_of_players", 100),
     (val_max, ":number_of_players", 0),
     (store_mul, ":effect_of_number_of_players", ":number_of_players", 2),
     (store_add, ":health_catapult", multi_minimum_target_health, ":effect_of_number_of_players"),     
     (store_mul, ":health_trebuchet", ":health_catapult", 15), #trebuchet's health is 1.5x of catapult's     
     (val_div, ":health_trebuchet", 10),
     (store_mul, ":health_sally_door", ":health_catapult", 18), #sally door's health is 1.8x of catapult's     
     (val_div, ":health_sally_door", 10),
     (store_mul, ":health_sally_door_double", ":health_sally_door", 2),

     (assign, "$g_number_of_targets_destroyed", 0),
     
     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_catapult_destructible"),
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_catapult_destructible", ":cur_instance"),     
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_catapult"),
     (try_end),   

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_trebuchet_destructible"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_trebuchet_destructible", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_trebuchet"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_e_sally_door_a"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_e_sally_door_a", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),
     
     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_f_sally_door_a"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_f_sally_door_a", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_earth_sally_gate_left"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_earth_sally_gate_left", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_double"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_earth_sally_gate_right"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_earth_sally_gate_right", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_double"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_left"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_left", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),     

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_right"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_right", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),     

     (store_div, ":health_sally_door_div_3", ":health_sally_door", 3),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_f_door_a"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_f_door_a", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_div_3"),
     (try_end),     

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_f_door_b"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_f_door_b", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_div_3"),
     (try_end),     
     ]),

Now my python is kinda rusty, but wouldn't it be possible to simply do a 10 sec delay at the start of the script OR change the min amount of health?

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on June 09, 2011, 04:00:30 pm

Ok, I've tried to fix the issue by always assuring a virtual playercount of at least 32. This means that if less players play than 32, it will be a bit harder for them to cut through than it should, and during the first round of a map with more than 32 players, it will be a bit easier, but not as easy as before. I know, it's not perfect, but I don't know how to introduce a delay in the calculations.

Changes line 12-15 (the try_begin until try_end block)

Code: [Select]

  #script_initialize_objects
  # INPUT: none
  # OUTPUT: none
  ("initialize_objects",
   [
     (assign, ":number_of_players", 0),
     (get_max_players, ":num_players"),
     (try_for_range, ":player_no", 0, ":num_players"),
       (player_is_active, ":player_no"),
       (val_add, ":number_of_players", 1),
     (try_end),

     (try_begin),
       (lt, ":number_of_players, 32),
       (assign, ":number_of_players", 32),
     (try_end),

     #1 player = (Sqrt(1) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1200, 1800 (minimum)
     #4 player = (Sqrt(4) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1400, 2100
     #9 player = (Sqrt(9) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1600, 2400
     #16 player = (Sqrt(16) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 1800, 2700 (general used)
     #25 player = (Sqrt(25) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2000, 3000 (average)
     #36 player = (Sqrt(36) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2200, 3300
     #49 player = (Sqrt(49) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2400, 3600
     #64 player = (Sqrt(49) - 1) * 200 + 1200 = 2600, 3900

     (set_fixed_point_multiplier, 100),
     (val_mul, ":number_of_players", 100),
     (store_sqrt, ":number_of_players", ":number_of_players"),
     (val_sub, ":number_of_players", 100),
     (val_max, ":number_of_players", 0),
     (store_mul, ":effect_of_number_of_players", ":number_of_players", 2),
     (store_add, ":health_catapult", multi_minimum_target_health, ":effect_of_number_of_players"),     
     (store_mul, ":health_trebuchet", ":health_catapult", 15), #trebuchet's health is 1.5x of catapult's     
     (val_div, ":health_trebuchet", 10),
     (store_mul, ":health_sally_door", ":health_catapult", 18), #sally door's health is 1.8x of catapult's     
     (val_div, ":health_sally_door", 10),
     (store_mul, ":health_sally_door_double", ":health_sally_door", 2),

     (assign, "$g_number_of_targets_destroyed", 0),
     
     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_catapult_destructible"),
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_catapult_destructible", ":cur_instance"),     
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_catapult"),
     (try_end),   

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_trebuchet_destructible"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_trebuchet_destructible", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_trebuchet"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_e_sally_door_a"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_e_sally_door_a", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),
     
     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_f_sally_door_a"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_f_sally_door_a", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_earth_sally_gate_left"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_earth_sally_gate_left", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_double"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_earth_sally_gate_right"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_earth_sally_gate_right", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_double"),
     (try_end),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_left"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_left", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),     

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_right"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_viking_keep_destroy_sally_door_right", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door"),
     (try_end),     

     (store_div, ":health_sally_door_div_3", ":health_sally_door", 3),

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_f_door_a"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_f_door_a", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_div_3"),
     (try_end),     

     (scene_prop_get_num_instances, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop", "spr_castle_f_door_b"),     
     (try_for_range, ":cur_instance", 0, ":num_instances_of_scene_prop"),
       (scene_prop_get_instance, ":cur_instance_id", "spr_castle_f_door_b", ":cur_instance"),
       (prop_instance_get_starting_position, pos0, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_stop_animating, ":cur_instance_id"),
       (prop_instance_set_position, ":cur_instance_id", pos0),
       (prop_instance_enable_physics, ":cur_instance_id", 1),
       (scene_prop_set_hit_points, ":cur_instance_id", ":health_sally_door_div_3"),
     (try_end),     
     ]),


Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on June 11, 2011, 04:34:39 pm

So what do the devs think of the fix? Is it reasonable? If so, can it be incorporated in the mod?

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: polkafranzi on August 05, 2011, 12:28:39 pm

bump, this needs looking at

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: Jacko on August 07, 2011, 12:35:46 pm

Nice  job, definitely needs looking in to. Never realized that was the cause, I just figured my weapon had a good day..

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on August 07, 2011, 10:27:33 pm

Yeah, unfortunately, it seems the devs are not aware of this. I've tried to get their attention in IRC, to no avail.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on August 27, 2011, 02:28:27 pm

Bumping again in the hope some dev might see it.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: VVarlord on August 27, 2011, 02:31:49 pm

I thought it was due to if the server has a minimal ammount of people on which it does in the first few seconds of a new map the server gives the doors etc minimal ammount.

So if the seige server is quiet 10 v 10 it is possible to still break through doors.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: Bulzur on August 27, 2011, 10:46:26 pm

No attacker can come to a door in less than 7sec on any siege map. And during thoses 7seconds after the first guy join, there's sometimes dozens of players who arrive.
The way it is, being a defender on the first round of a map is very hard. You can easily loose your well-earned multi, even when your team plays good. I did saw defenders win first round mind you. But it's rare.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on August 27, 2011, 11:59:46 pm

Quote from: VVarlord on August 27, 2011, 02:31:49 pm

I thought it was due to if the server has a minimal ammount of people on which it does in the first few seconds of a new map the server gives the doors etc minimal ammount.

So if the seige server is quiet 10 v 10 it is possible to still break through doors.

Yeah, unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work right. The calculations should be delayed for at least 3 seconds, and it should include spectators in the playercount. But it doesn't seem to. Which is why all doors have ridiculously low HP in the first round on any map. Which means you can't really build siege maps that rely on doors, or you have to make them defender biased in general to offset the almost-certainly-lost first round.

My fix would ensure a minimum health of all doors equal to the health they would have at 32 players. Still low, but better than the current situation. I think it could already help on some maps, like e.g. Holmet Castle, which has three gates that must be broken (on the direct route), and still the first round is mostly lost by def because attackers just cut down those three gates in under three minutes.

Ideally, there would be a better fix for the problem, of course.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: Digglez on August 28, 2011, 12:03:11 am

BUMP FOR JUSTICE

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: POOPHAMMER on August 28, 2011, 08:45:44 am

Almost 3 months later and the devs have yet to even respond

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on August 28, 2011, 05:29:13 pm

The devs are a bunch of deafs.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on August 30, 2011, 12:03:08 am

Bumpety, see previous page.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: polkafranzi on August 30, 2011, 12:16:43 am

re-bump til a dev answers

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: LordBerenger on August 30, 2011, 12:27:04 am

Devs appreciate this bug i herd.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: polkafranzi on August 30, 2011, 01:39:06 am

Quote from: CountBerenger on August 30, 2011, 12:27:04 am

Devs appreciate this bug i herd.

what do you herd?

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on September 04, 2011, 11:07:22 am

bump

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on September 07, 2011, 09:15:27 pm

bump

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: polkafranzi on September 07, 2011, 09:19:00 pm

re-bump and add to this the hitting thru doors ridiculous problem

DEVS WAKE UP PLS

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: Jacko on September 08, 2011, 12:17:57 am

*Cough*

Don't quote me on this one, but from What I Heard , the devs discussed it and they did not find your fix satisfactory, don't ask me why. It's probably another one of those things that gets thrown in with the holy grail that is WSE.

Title: Re: Door HP bug
Post by: zagibu on September 08, 2011, 05:05:40 pm

Well, I also don't feel that my fix is satisfactory, but it would already help a lot on some maps (e.g. Brunwud Castle)  until the problem is properly fixed. Also, it would have been nice, if one of them had actually posted something in this thread. I don't think discouraging community participation is the way to go.