cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Templar_Steevee on February 23, 2016, 12:33:46 pm

Title: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 23, 2016, 12:33:46 pm
After last patch ppl are whining a lot about ranged. I want to say about bows

They are giving a lot of different reasons why ranged is stronger than before patch, but mostly they are wrong.

Dmg is actualy reduced or at same lvl as before, same with accuracy.

All I noticed is just too high missile speed. That's why ranged are hitting more than before, nothing else.
now arrows and bolts are flying a way too flat and fast IMO, almost like bullets from rifles.
Missile speed from before patch were ok, there were no need to increase it more, and if not as much as devs did it.

Maybe devs should think about reducing a bit missile speed and it gonna be ok.


A bit less missile speed, a lot less tears in c-rpg world :)

P.S
Except missile speed a big + from me for this patch
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 23, 2016, 01:07:18 pm
Indeed the problem is with the missile speed, im ok with some damage on ranged, hey i thought they were pretty weak last patch. But with this missile speed it really is just impossible to dodge, it seems to open up so many opportunities for archers that previously were risky shots, or just very unlikely hits. Every other hit is an headshot, i mean sure some archers were already good at headshotting, but now everyone does with little effort.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Admerius on February 23, 2016, 01:47:07 pm
PD increases damage,
PD damage bonus cap for bows are hardcoded to maximum PD requirements for bow +4, amirite?

If previous statement is true:
Base damage= Damage listed on bow
effective damage= Damage in-game when taking wpf and PD in to account

Why does higher PD bows always have increased base damage?
Base damage could be the same, maybe even lower, on higher PD bows and still do more effective damage in comparison to lower PD bows because of the higher levels of PD required and higher PD cap.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Yuang on February 23, 2016, 02:01:47 pm
Yes, this is not the bow, but sniper rifle.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: matt2507 on February 23, 2016, 02:08:25 pm
Missile speed reduction is on the next fix. I'm also waiting now, I can't do more atm. Be a bit patient, it should come in the week.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Thomas_Cadarn on February 23, 2016, 03:24:37 pm
Nice, that would make archery at least a little bit more reality like.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: sF_Guardian on February 23, 2016, 05:48:20 pm
Buff, nerf, buff, nerf, can't you just find a solution to keep ranged at a decent level?
It's just annoyin to adapt to the new trajectory arcs time and time again. (Even though this nerf is really needed.)
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Turkhammer on February 23, 2016, 05:50:48 pm
Nice, that would make archery at least a little bit more reality like.

Tee hee, he said reality. :D
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: XyNox on February 23, 2016, 11:17:32 pm
Buff, nerf, buff, nerf, can't you just find a solution to keep ranged at a decent level?
It's just annoyin to adapt to the new trajectory arcs time and time again. (Even though this nerf is really needed.)

There certainly are solutions that I already tried to explain to Tydeus multiple times but apparently rolling a dice when it comes to stats is more fun.

1. Lower the missile speed for bows/xbows to a point where hitting shots consistently over medium range is difficult but not impossible:
- Number of "casual" ranged players would drop, are forced to become better or quit the class, leaving only dedicated ranged players at the servers.
- Ranged would not be able to shoot inf/cav across the entire map because of heavy arcing projectiles
- People decent enough at anticipating/reacting to incoming projectiles would actually have the time to react
- The amount of teamhits would presumably drop immensly since you can lob missiles over your own troops instead of trying the shoot through the gaps between them

2. Remove kiting via a dedicated mechanic and remove workarounds like the artificially increased ammo and weapon weight where it hurts melee capabilities. This could be done by, depending on what the engine allows for:
- Prolonging the weapon switch animation when pulling out a ranged weapon
- Decreasing the walkspeed when aiming/drawing a ranged weapon
- Decreasing the players maximum turnrate ( as it is with melee weapons ) with aimed/drawn ranged weapons to a point where normal aiming is not affected but those "run away and 180 turn quickshots" are not possible anymore
- Prevent people that carry ranged weaponry in any slot from reaching sprint speed ( not walk speed ). <- That way player acceleration - which matters greatly in terms of footwork - is not impeded in any way, yet ranged that chooses to run away indefinitely can be cought even by average ath melee builds.

With kiting eliminated and quivers and ranged weapon weight consequently reverted to a more realistic value:
- Ranged players would have more incentive only option is to fight in melee instead of running away or even implenting some PS in their builds instead of going full ath to not be outrun by a plate crutcher.
- Ranged payers could stand their ground in melee as well as defend from cav instead of constantly being dependant on melee acting as babysitters.

3. As compensation for the loss of missile speed, buff damage to point where high damage/weapon combos like a 33/18 longbower really make a difference.
- Playing ranged would be vastly more of a rewarding experience if the player posseses the skill to cope with the slow missiles instead of spamming some guy 3 times in the face with a lazer bow where the skill ceiling of your class is basically limited by the amount of headshots your target survives.

4. Remove damage drop off over range. It may not be realistic but in terms of gamebalance it helps nobody
- The problem of ranged dealing fucktons of damage for easy close-range shots and negligible damage for really hard long-range shots would disappear.
- Ranged damage would be far easier to balance with another variable out of the way.

5. Lastly, ease up on the armour restrictions a bit
- The build restrictions, especially for archers are severe enough and will not allow for a highPS/highWPF combination as long as you want to have at least decent ranged capabilities. The armor weight multipliers like for the gloves, which count at a factor of a whooping 6x is just way over the top for a class that already needs the highest skillpoint and attribute dedication of all the ranged classes. Archers shouldnt be tanky of course, but maybe being able to put on enough armour to at least survive one more swing would be nice.

In the end, ranged would be harder which equals less ranged on the server but also more rewarding to those who can handle the class. Melees: happy // Ranged: happy
The removal of kiting would mean no annoying ranged-runners anymore who are just waiting to turn around and shoot as soon as you break off your persuit but rather ranged that has capability and incentive to pull out their melee weapons. Melees: happy // Ranged: Well, sorry Artem and Vesselow but I guess most will be happy
Lower number of ranged + slower missiles means that actively dodging projectiles would portray a matter of playerskill and awareness instead of the current situation, mostly luck. Melees: happy // Ranged: happy

So what the hell are you waiting for Dupre/Balance team ? Do you want to keep this nerf buff nerf buff nerf cycle going for the rest of eternity ? Fiddling with the stats WILL NOT FIX this issue in an acceptable way for both parties, even if you proceed this way for another 5 years.

All of this only works of course if the melee lobby is able burry the hatchet just for this one single time and approves certain ranged buffs which would be a non-optional compensation for the types of nerfs listed here. I am not really expecting much cooperation but then again, I cannot imagine you 2h and pole heroes like to be range raped either everytime the balance team decides to give ranged some stats a "tad" too good.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: McKli_PL on February 23, 2016, 11:49:47 pm
can't agree more with your post big + but this wpf penalty on gloves,head armor and legs its just a bit joke , with head armor +45(30str) i can survive a headshot on many bows with body armor 51/11(30str)and low ath(zero negative speed bonus) u can survive a 2 flamburger hits left blackbared the crucial thing is not to take gloves or take gloves with 0 weight like Featherweight leather gloves +3, giving 4 body armor and not generating any wpf penalty (0weight x penalty is still a zero) and some good +3 boots like nomand boots, with this pure eq abuse archer is very slow(low ath) but tanky as fuck,hits hard in melee and still pewpewing like a mad tard so i think giving penalty should be INCREASED even more especialy on body armor, i know it's very frustrating for a melee player that even if he dodged arrows like a spiderman still it's not so easy to kill tanky idiot archer with high armor and probably more hp than 'pure' melee build, and also remove(if its possible via engine) any nugdes for archers im not using it but with str archer whore and 10 ps block+nugde+fast switch to bow+hs its just a pure aidz no skill tactic yet still avaiable(remove nuges and fast weapon switchin)
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: The Wicked Reach on February 24, 2016, 03:40:37 am
(click to show/hide)

Nice critical thinking about archer balancing.  I do have a couple of criticisms tho:
Instead of lowering missile speed for all bows, lower accuracy for high-dmg bows (Givem FAT Reticles!)  It only makes sense that the harder back you pull a bow, the less able you are to aim it precisely.
Who says archer kitery is bad?  If melee wants to wear heavy armor that slows them down or not put pts in ath, that's their problem.  I mean, archers shouldn't be running circles, but just enough that if they play smart, they can stay one step ahead.  I personally don't do it cuz I get dizzy, but I can give props to those who do.

Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Golem on February 24, 2016, 04:13:32 am
The amount of teamhits would presumably drop immensly since you can lob missiles over your own troops instead of trying the shoot through the gaps between them
If this gets in I might actually play archer just for the immersion.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: XyNox on February 24, 2016, 04:17:59 am
Nice critical thinking about archer balancing.  I do have a couple of criticisms tho:
Instead of lowering missile speed for all bows, lower accuracy for high-dmg bows (Givem FAT Reticles!)  It only makes sense that the harder back you pull a bow, the less able you are to aim it precisely.
Who says archer kitery is bad?  If melee wants to wear heavy armor that slows them down or not put pts in ath, that's their problem.  I mean, archers shouldn't be running circles, but just enough that if they play smart, they can stay one step ahead.  I personally don't do it cuz I get dizzy, but I can give props to those who do.

I dont know what a medieval warbow feels like in real life but in terms of game balance, I dont think RNG really belongs in this game. All the core game mechanics rely on skill based player inputs in order to attack somebody or defend from those attacks, whether be it by dodging, blocking, avoiding, positioning or general awareness. That concept even holds true for random occursions like knockdowns; while the chance of being knocked down on hit is entirely based on a random chance, the applied effect can be mostly negated by a roll via the right player input or could have been even blocked in the first place/dodged by footwork.

If my bow though decides to miss the enemy by a meter to the right, I could have in no way compensated for that, even if my aim would have been spot on when releasing that arrow. RNG does simply not fit this game in my opinion. Lastly, realism tends to balances it self. If there would have been bows in medieval war times that were so inaccurate to use for a certain purpose, I assume people would have simply stopped using these bows and craft more accurate ones.

As for the the athletics, kiting in fact is bad, we have been there some years ago. If you play melee and your enemy can a) outrun you WHILE b) being able to damage you from afar, you obviously have no way ever to defeat this opponent. This is the reason why Horse Archers deal almost no damage, to compensate for them having access to both these traits ( Although their horses die within seconds these days anyways ). Its not fun on the melee side and its cheap on the ranged side, neither wins in terms of gameplay. If you are talking about extreme low ath builds like 45/6 etc. then I can agree. With 2 or 3 ath only and heavy armor you should not expect anything but being outrun by pretty much everybody on the battlefield.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Golem on February 24, 2016, 04:22:32 am
IMO the missile speed shoud get dropped to the speed of throwing weapons - also another buff could be giving more arrows
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: XyNox on February 24, 2016, 04:40:41 am
IMO the missile speed shoud get dropped to the speed of throwing weapons - also another buff could be giving more arrows

Just by imagining in my head that arrows would fly as slow as throwing axes or throwing lances feels somewhat too slow and would look rather silly ingame. Its hard to say of course without actually going to a server and test which value seems appropriate but I think a good point of reference was the old nomad bow. When its speed got decreased to 38 from the prior 48 (?) with only a maximum speed increase up to PD6, the impact was enormous and from that day on you would almost only see 2 slots bows exclusively on the battlefield. I continued to use the nomad bow even after the missile speed nerf and I say it is definitely in the realm of possible to make use of such a missile speed, although it would be quite the change compared to what we have now.
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Larvae on February 24, 2016, 05:04:01 am
I dont know what a medieval warbow feels like in real life but in terms of game balance, I dont think RNG really belongs in this game. All the core game mechanics rely on skill based player inputs in order to attack somebody or defend from those attacks, whether be it by dodging, blocking, avoiding, positioning or general awareness. That concept even holds true for random occursions like knockdowns; while the chance of being knocked down on hit is entirely based on a random chance, the applied effect can be mostly negated by a roll via the right player input or could have been even blocked in the first place/dodged by footwork.

If my bow though decides to miss the enemy by a meter to the right, I could have in no way compensated for that, even if my aim would have been spot on when releasing that arrow. RNG does simply not fit this game in my opinion. Lastly, realism tends to balances it self. If there would have been bows in medieval war times that were so inaccurate to use for a certain purpose, I assume people would have simply stopped using these bows and craft more accurate ones.

As for the the athletics, kiting in fact is bad, we have been there some years ago. If you play melee and your enemy can a) outrun you WHILE b) being able to damage you from afar, you obviously have no way ever to defeat this opponent. This is the reason why Horse Archers deal almost no damage, to compensate for them having access to both these traits ( Although their horses die within seconds these days anyways ). Its not fun on the melee side and its cheap on the ranged side, neither wins in terms of gameplay. If you are talking about extreme low ath builds like 45/6 etc. then I can agree. With 2 or 3 ath only and heavy armor you should not expect anything but being outrun by pretty much everybody on the battlefield.

In Rl i shoot bows aswell,it isnt true that u are not that accurate with strong bows,but u just cant hold em long enough to follow for example a meele player with ur aim if he is walking left and right and left and right ...

also,stronger bows have less "bulletdrop" because of the power which the bow gives to the arrows.

I think archery was fine as it was in the beginning,with the old arrow fly models and stuff.

Instead of changing archery again and i need to fix my build again after i loomed some bows already with the current situation,just buff armor stats.

To hit throu a plate armor is very hard,even with an english longbow and bodkin arrows,these wont go much deeper then maybe 3-5 cm in fact = less dmg.

Increase armor stats so u get a real bonus for using this heavy stuff,lett archers run away,i mean what else should they do?or increase their ability to fight in meele,because u need like min. 170 wpf for archery to hit anything over midrange...
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: McKli_PL on February 24, 2016, 07:11:48 am
Instead of lowering missile speed for all bows, lower accuracy for high-dmg bows (Givem FAT Reticles!)
it will not affect them like u think, missile speed is just a game mechanic u can not abuse,i mean if missile speed is high on some ranged weapon like a bow or xbow and a player knows how to shoot or how trajectory works in crpg he can shoot without crosshair or with shit acc/wpf in archery, all u need is to know how to land an arrow/bolt from point a(your bow) to point b(enemy head) and thats why ppl played with normal melee builds +crossbow prepatch with a devastating effect (missile speed on xbow was so fast) and landing headshot in mid/long range not to mention normal 'shotgun' actions from behind 8-)
so in tldr lowering acc is not a solution for this
seriously old prepatch 'physic' i think was much better for archers and melee, if melee was dodging like a spastic monkey he could avoid arrows and fight in 'normal' conditions, now with high missile speed and most important the 'shitty' bows are buffed to max level and PD whores with PS can even take 1slot deadly weapons its waaaaay too much IMO
Title: Re: What's wrong with Archery After patch??
Post by: Eskil on February 24, 2016, 06:10:52 pm
Stop crying! You stop crying only when left alone in the game, 2hs and polearms, while the remaining classes will be as dull and not fun to play, that play for them is not possible, and then there are whiners .. I suggest the old bows to return them to become, and to make new want .. Before your recent patch everything all happy with!  :mad: