cRPG

Melee: Battlegrounds => General => Topic started by: Gaz.Spencer on February 22, 2016, 05:41:56 am

Title: Stamina
Post by: Gaz.Spencer on February 22, 2016, 05:41:56 am: I was just curious as to how many people like/don't like Stamina. I personally am fine with or without.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Gurgumul on February 22, 2016, 06:12:12 am: I'd love stamina to be drained every time you feint, so that you have to swing consequently. Would eliminate 2h hero trymy old friend feinthards spinning around, waving their fancy weeaboo swords like weightless sticks.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: MacX85 on February 22, 2016, 11:20:05 am: I generally like stamina as it holds spamming and unrealistic behavior at bay. The rest is an issue of balancing/fine tuning.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Umbra on February 22, 2016, 11:32:41 am: Stamina is gay, pls no. The game is already slow enough where duels between good players last too long, dont slow it down even further.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: MacX85 on February 22, 2016, 11:55:26 am: Quote from: Umbra on February 22, 2016, 11:32:41 am
Stamina is gay, pls no. The game is already slow enough where duels between good players last too long, dont slow it down even further.

On that note: I totally disregard duels as I think that's just a small niche for pro players anyway. I'm having big battles in mind and for that discouraging spamming is a good thing, I think.

Also it doesn't necessarily slow down the battle. It's all a matter of finetuning... You can make it so that you can fight for 10-15 seconds straight before getting into the danger zone if you wanted.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Gurgumul on February 22, 2016, 11:59:36 am: But stamina would actually speed duels up. Players would be forced to take action instead of endlessy feinting and only occasionaly rarely maybe sometimes eventually attacking. Make it so that holding the weapon ready to strike drains stamina and increases the blow's power at first but then decreases it if you hold the weapon up for too long.

Also increase bows' rate of fire but apply stamina to archers so that shooting too fast (without pauses betweens shots) exhausts them and their arrows have less speed and deal less damage. Pulling and holding the string drains stamina, so that archers have to more consequently decide when to pull the string, because holding it for too long would make the shot less powerful. That would give archers a choice between high rate of fire or high power, would make battles more interesting imo.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Micah on February 22, 2016, 12:10:50 pm: edit: i figured that my post is a bit besides the point of stamina in combat ... i leave it here anyways to annoy people ... hf :mrgreen:

For me, the poll is void.

First of, it all depends on the : How stamina is incorporated into the game; not the : IF.

The stamina shouldnt be visible like the stamina bar in the dev HUD in the vid. But i am pretty certain to recall that thats whats being aimed for - the immersive HUD - in the end. Like no floating banners and no HP bar and also stamina bar ... if possible. This requires good ideas as on how to implement indicators or cues for body states in different ways - like changed movement or breath sounds or flashing screen or color changes (like in CoD on low life) - and those are yet to be found, tested and implemented.

Secondly, stamina might be the best/optimal or even only possible design decision in order to overcome certain gameplay problems ... like the mentioned kiting problem. And as long as you dont find a better solution, its propably a good choice.

I for one would love to see an pro animator animate character states (stamina/arousal/exhaustion) how the char is feeling ... plus breath sounds+frequency+amplitude or coughing and face color and sweating indication ... a character footwork migh look sloppy or clunky/out of balance on low stamina.
This would cater most to the immersion as its utilizing empathy/mirror neuron system, which is propably the most immersive way you can have.
This is very hard to pull off and perhaps to expensive ... and it has potential to interfere with alot other things ... fighting moves/timings and stances would have to have states aswell (not efficiency wise, but indication wise).
Thats why it has to be done way, way down the road and needs placeholders like HUD bars for the time being ... perhaps as the very last thing to do, if at all.

I dont believe we will get this "immersive stamina HUD" - but i just wanted to show that it depends on the HOW not the IF something is done :)
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 22, 2016, 12:15:10 pm: Quote from: Gurgumul on February 22, 2016, 06:12:12 am
I'd love stamina to be drained every time you feint, so that you have to swing consequently. Would eliminate 2h hero trymy old friend feinthards spinning around, waving their fancy weeaboo swords like weightless sticks.

Feinting is a pretty core mechanic to crpg tho, with mindgames and techniques behind it. It would be sad to see it go.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 22, 2016, 12:31:24 pm: visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Gurgumul on February 22, 2016, 12:32:33 pm: feinting is gay
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Leshma on February 22, 2016, 01:45:54 pm: Quote from: Umbra on February 22, 2016, 11:32:41 am
Stamina is gay, pls no. The game is already slow enough where duels between good players last too long, dont slow it down even further.

Well I kinda hoped they'll go with free flow 360 attack scheme where blocking/deflecting incoming attacks will be a thing of proper timing and body positioning, not like in Warband where it is a mini game basically (reminds me of whack-a-mole). For a Warband-like system stamina is really limiting combat, but for something like Overgrowth where attack is result of procedural animation and positioning, stamina could be defining combat system in a good way (depends on actual implementation of course).

From what I've seen (maybe it is completely different when you play it), they tried many approaches to combat design but someone ended on the same path as War of the Roses devs...

Kingdom Come: Deliverance combat systems looks much better, might even be more skill based.

Edit: Just the video from latest Kingdom Come: Deliverance alpha. It doesn't just look better, it is infinitely more better and skill based than anything including Warband. Not even a contest really. Will see what Taleworlds will come up for Bannerlord, but their combat system is poor compared to what Warhorse has envisioned. Kingdom Come have some similar issues like Melee, stamina system is poorly implemented as well (draining only on attacks...) and leg movement is also jarring. That has to do with the way animations work because proper leg animations including many little movements, leg raising, hopping and stuff like that. If you don't translate that properly into the game, your character glides over the ground. Which is a shame because upper body animations in Kingdom Come are near perfect, almost completely real.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: MacX85 on February 22, 2016, 02:38:47 pm: I played Kingdom Come shortly and maybe I didn't discover it in depth but since somebody said that stances in MBG will only work for duels and not for big battles... the whole combat system in Kingdom Come seems to be centered around dueling. You're fixated on your opponent and can't move freely.
That wouldn't work for MBG at all.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Jacko on February 22, 2016, 03:04:55 pm: Not sure we played the same game. I felt kingdom come combat was more of a quick time event than free combat (looks very nice though).
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: pogosan on February 22, 2016, 03:58:26 pm
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Gaz.Spencer on February 24, 2016, 05:04:54 am: I was quite interested that so far, more than a third of the votes went to 'I'll see after I've played it'. Hopefully we get to play it soon. Hopefully 10-15 weeks, since they said roughly 5 devblogs, being posted fortnightly.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Macropus on February 24, 2016, 08:07:14 am: Just having stamina doesn't mean anything, it all depends on the way it's implemented in the actual game, so my take is wait and see.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Gaz.Spencer on February 24, 2016, 07:03:05 pm: Well we know more or less how it's implemented, or tho specific values will be changed after play testing.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Turkhammer on February 24, 2016, 09:16:57 pm: Quote from: Gaz.Spencer on February 24, 2016, 05:04:54 am
I was quite interested that so far, more than a third of the votes went to 'I'll see after I've played it'.

It's the most logical and reasonable vote.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Kafein on February 25, 2016, 12:23:04 am: As long as I can be on the defensive just fine with low stamina, it's alright. I guess stamina should only affect attacks and movement. Holding bows, pushing stuff, that kind of things.

Another thing: while a stamina bar UI is okay for the moment, I think you guys should aim for having multiple sets of animations made for varying degrees of fatigue. This corresponds more to the intuitiveness ideal.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: matt2507 on February 26, 2016, 12:14:09 am: Quote from: Kafein on February 25, 2016, 12:23:04 am
Another thing: while a stamina bar UI is okay for the moment, I think you guys should aim for having multiple sets of animations made for varying degrees of fatigue. This corresponds more to the intuitiveness ideal.

Or a dynamic Hud effect instead of a simple bar.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Kadeth on February 26, 2016, 12:42:45 am: Quote from: Gurgumul on February 22, 2016, 12:32:33 pm
feinting is gay

Sure, It's unrealistic, but Warband would be awful without it. No feinting would mean a huge reduction to the skill ceiling. It's already boring enough watching two players duel with 99% block success rates. The game has been around for 6 years, you should know how to deal with feints by now.

Endless double swings and holds would be gayer.

As for M:BG, I don't really care whether you can feint endlessly or not, as long as the combat system has similar depth to Warband.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Larvae on April 08, 2016, 10:19:26 am: if its like in viking conquest,i would love that,no more extreme builds and running over the half map,also no tin can which runs faster then u in his plate armor^^
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Jezbelle on April 08, 2016, 01:00:24 pm: A dynamic change in the character animation would be nice for indicating stamina, but if even the most basic animations still need help after all that MoCap, we know that it's a distant reality.

UI bars are bad. Because you have to look away from combat to read it. But a very simple, ambiguous "light" flashing faintly on the perimeters of the screen, or underneath our character, could indicate our stamina level without making us glance away. It would be seen even from a PERIPHERAL view.

So instead of a bar with 3 colors, you could have NO BAR, and instead have a larger color spectrum to indicate the precise degree of stamina within one of the 3 stages. Darker green would mean a healthier stamina, then it would fade to light green, then the light could "flash" dark yellow, meaning you've entered the middle stage, and it would get increasingly more orange in color until it flashed red.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Golem on April 08, 2016, 01:46:13 pm: Quote from: Jezbelle on April 08, 2016, 01:00:24 pm
A dynamic change in the character animation would be nice for indicating stamina, but if even the most basic animations still need help after all that MoCap, we know that it's a distant reality.

UI bars are bad. Because you have to look away from combat to read it. But a very simple, ambiguous "light" flashing faintly on the perimeters of the screen, or underneath our character, could indicate our stamina level without making us glance away. It would be seen even from a PERIPHERAL view.

So instead of a bar with 3 colors, you could have NO BAR, and instead have a larger color spectrum to indicate the precise degree of stamina within one of the 3 stages. Darker green would mean a healthier stamina, then it would fade to light green, then the light could "flash" dark yellow, meaning you've entered the middle stage, and it would get increasingly more orange in color until it flashed red.

I am for no HUD at all, let people figure it out.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Jona on April 08, 2016, 04:25:31 pm: Quote from: Golem on April 08, 2016, 01:46:13 pm
I am for no HUD at all, let people figure it out.

You slowly lose your peripheral vision and the world goes black and white, then completely dark.
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on April 08, 2016, 06:31:38 pm: Quote from: Jezbelle on April 08, 2016, 01:00:24 pm
A dynamic change in the character animation would be nice for indicating stamina, but if even the most basic animations still need help after all that MoCap, we know that it's a distant reality.

UI bars are bad. Because you have to look away from combat to read it. But a very simple, ambiguous "light" flashing faintly on the perimeters of the screen, or underneath our character, could indicate our stamina level without making us glance away. It would be seen even from a PERIPHERAL view.

So instead of a bar with 3 colors, you could have NO BAR, and instead have a larger color spectrum to indicate the precise degree of stamina within one of the 3 stages. Darker green would mean a healthier stamina, then it would fade to light green, then the light could "flash" dark yellow, meaning you've entered the middle stage, and it would get increasingly more orange in color until it flashed red.
wouldnt be very fun for colorblind people like me
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Golem on April 08, 2016, 09:01:13 pm: Quote from: Tristan_of_Erzoth on April 08, 2016, 06:31:38 pm
wouldnt be very fun for colorblind people like me

cmon you pussy, obviously there would also be a blur effect
Title: Re: Stamina
Post by: Jezbelle on April 09, 2016, 06:40:37 am: Quote from: Tristan_of_Erzoth on April 08, 2016, 06:31:38 pm
wouldnt be very fun for colorblind people like me

I'm sure a mod could easily be made to simply swap the colors to: Blue ---> Yellow ---> Black

Would that solve it?