cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 12:04:31 am

Title: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 12:04:31 am
Sup, losers. What's shaking? We begin.

The ad hominem fallacy; one of the most misused terms on the internet and the favorite fallback of certain delicate types. I have noticed a disturbing trend on this here forum, and so I have decided to take action to correct the course of this ship and to set everything right in the world once more with this public service announcement.

What is it? It's a logical fallacy. What is it not? It's not a shield against insults or personal attacks.

Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those crying out "ad hominem!" -- since they try to dismiss their opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. And as the shuttlecock said to the battledore: mistakes don't travel alone, they hunt in packs. Those who commit this fallacy - the ad hominem fallacy while accusing others of it - are typically guilty of an even worse fallacy: the fallacious belief that blurting out an impressive-sounding Latin term gives one a decisive edge in an argument.

What do I mean when I say it's a logical fallacy? Well, I'm glad you asked. It means that there is a flaw in the logic: something stated does not logically follow from the premise. This flaw can be expressed in a standard logic system. But how does ad hominem fit into this? Let us entertain an example.

Quote
If P then Q
P
Therefore Q

This is a valid, logical argument. What happens if you add insults to it, without making it ad hominem?

Quote
If P then Q
P
Therefore Q, you fucking retard.

This is still a perfectly good and valid logical argument. The insult does nothing to hinder the argument.

What would a real ad hominem look like?

Quote
If P then Q
P
You're a retard, therefore Q

The logic itself is flawed, but it's important to note that even logically flawed arguments can still be true, it's just that their truth-value is not proven by said argument.

As often as not, insults are not presented as arguments or supporting evidence -- they exist outside the logic, without engaging it, and thus they, too, do not constitute an ad hominem fallacy. For example:

Quote
Sam: If P then Q, P, therefore Q.
Bob: You're an idiot.

This assertion is made not in relation to the logic presented, but outside it. Not an ad hominem fallacy.

In conclusion, we've learned the important distinction between engaging with an argument within the logical construct and engaging with the person presenting it outside the logical construct. The insult noises made have no more bearing, for better or worse, when it comes to argument, than someone eating an omelette or making a few impressive dance moves. These things do not interact.

I leave to you a helpful quick chart; may it serve you well.

--------------------------------------------------------
NOT AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong
- You're stupid
- You're stupid because you're wrong
--------------------------------------------------------
AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong because you're stupid
--------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: pogosan on October 12, 2015, 12:16:01 am
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Kafein on October 12, 2015, 12:20:45 am
Fighting the good fight Xant. It is sad to think that despite your best efforts, most people will still be wrong because most people are stupid, and stupid people have difficulties formulating coherent arguments.

That said, allow me to add that one should not mix logical arguments and simple opinions or other statements that lack a truth value. If a used car salesman tells you he's going out of business if he sells you a car for cheaper than what he's asking, it's sensible to question his honesty, because he's a used car salesman.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 12:26:11 am
That said, allow me to add that one should not mix logical arguments and simple opinions or other statements that lack a truth value. If a used car salesman tells you he's going out of business if he sells you a car for cheaper than what he's asking, it's sensible to question his honesty, because he's a used car salesman.
Yes, indeed, there are correct uses for the ad hominem "fallacy" in actual conversations. They can help with Bayesian updating in certain cases. But they still prove little.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Asheram on October 12, 2015, 12:34:13 am
Damn I thought this was going to be a thread about how to add visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 to your favorite recipes.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 12, 2015, 12:34:45 am
Xunt lives to argue, and now teaches us how to do it properly too. Feels like xunt has become less xunt and more xant recently, is finlands economy stabilising possibly?
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Grytviken on October 12, 2015, 12:36:17 am
I don't agree with any of this, therefore xant is racist
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Angantyr on October 12, 2015, 12:41:24 am
nasis
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Grytviken on October 12, 2015, 12:45:33 am
nasis

uh oh, hey jimmy
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Grytviken on October 12, 2015, 01:08:44 am

Is this a good example Xant?
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Leshma on October 12, 2015, 01:33:18 am
Hmm let's see. I decided to troll Oberyn. Called him natzee for half an hour. Don't recall if we were discussing something, throwing arguments at each other. I believe it was just me calling him natzee. I believed he was a dick, yet didn't have any proper arguments to back it up so I went taunting route. Doesn't that make it ad hominem?

However, years have passed. Many discussion happened, arguments tossed around. It appears that Oberyn is indeed sharing some political beliefs with natzees. Therefore I was kinda right, even though it was shot in the dark.

My question is, how can you tell valid argument from lucky guess? Both come out as result of brain activity. Are you sure that logical thinking is always superior to human instinct? That is more efficient? Is accuracy of result that important to us, even if sometimes it can take a lot longer than acting upon a hunch? Have you ever thought that trying to quantize everything might be wrong way? Does every action we take has to be split into tiny parts and be analyzed?

I mean it works on Internet, because you are not physically engaging other people, so you're safe from certain scenarios. But if you're having argument and while you do your logic thing, other dude decides to act based upon his inner self and punch you so hard your nose starts to bleed and you black-out, possibly losing some of your precious brain cells. What if it ends as brain injury? What have your logic brought good to you in such situation.

No wonder wussies want us to live inside the machine, where there is no "irrational" violence and similar actions. They want to be in full control by just using one part of their body and using always the same way.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 01:35:20 am
Hmm let's see. I decided to troll Oberyn. Called him natzee for half an hour. Don't recall if we were discussing something, throwing arguments at each other. I believe it was just me calling him natzee. I believed he was a dick, yet didn't have any proper arguments to back it up so I went taunting route. Doesn't that make it ad hominem?
No, that makes you an asshole.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Grytviken on October 12, 2015, 01:41:41 am
Didn't you Murricuntz know that Apollo space program was started in Bosnian mountains, under Yugoslavian supervision, and was later sold by Marshal Tito to John F. Kennedy in exchange for protection against USSR and huge funds you gave us for couple decades so we can live Greek style, doing jack shit while having great salaries?

Therefore I claim that intelligence can't grow on American soil, it has to be imported. Otherwise natives would find a way to deal with Europeans. They just weren't smart enough. American soil can't produce intelligent life form, it's a fact!

I think ad-hominems account for 50% of your natural brain functioning capacity.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Leshma on October 12, 2015, 01:48:12 am
Shitposting is ad hominem? It is very close to 100%, not 50%. When surrounded by shit, best you can do is try to blend in.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Bronto on October 12, 2015, 01:53:01 am
I didn't read this because you used too many words.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2015, 01:56:27 am
Xent pls no XdxDDD
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Leshma on October 12, 2015, 02:01:03 am
I didn't read this because you used too many words.

(click to show/hide)

Good choice. People who use too many words to say something aren't smart enough.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2015, 02:03:23 am
Good choice. People who use too many words to say something aren't smart enough.

So mute people are geniuses then, right?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 02:21:00 am
Good choice. People who use too many words to say something aren't smart enough.
There is something called inferential distance.

You can get across a lot of information to a mathematician by showing them the equation

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


But to explain the same thing to an eight year-old would take both considerably longer and considerably more words. Especially if you wanted them to understand what you are saying without the shadow of a doubt.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 03:08:55 am
Xant reminds me of yesterday's student who is trying to prove to everyone that he has grown and now he is a person and not just a cunt, placing clever things from books blogs that he read over the summer  :o
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 03:25:16 am
Went that much over your head? I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 05:17:07 am
You're a human being.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 12, 2015, 05:22:36 am
Shitposting is ad hominem? It is very close to 100%, not 50%. When surrounded by shit, best you can do is try to blend in.

I disagree vehemently. Proper shitposting is neither an art nor science; it can be more accurately described as a religion or lifestyle. What it is certainly not is an ad hominem argument.

An ad hominem argument implies that an argument in question is rendered completely invalid by unsavory personal characteristics on behalf of the person behind the argument. At least, this is the intention of the person behind the ad hominem attack.

Shitposting does not imply this. Shitposting is, by very definition, only intended to deliver personal insult and humour. A reasonable person understands that shitposting's place is wholly transcended above that of the ad hominem argument. A true shitposter isn't at all worried about winning an argument. In fact, the very best shitposters won't even target an individual unless they've no other choice (read: niggas not checking themselves).



Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 12, 2015, 05:43:59 am
What do you call it when its a shitpost but its not funny or offensive?

You don't call it anything. Anyone attempting to shitpost with no humour, shock, or offensive value is making a mockery of the practice. They should be completely ignored, lest they become encouraged by attention.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 12, 2015, 06:36:45 am
Sandy man, you should teach a class on Troll Theory. I never know how to deal with internet trolls myself and feel like I could benefit from a class on them and you know your stuff.

I'll begin working on a cirriculum right now.

I've already located a very good potential textbook!

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 12:11:52 pm
I have mistaken my lack of sympathy for intelligence, my apathy for realism, and my profound narcissism for confidence.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Umbra on October 12, 2015, 12:18:13 pm
This is factual information.

I acknowledge that you shared this information with us and would like to compliment you. You're a human being.

A real human bean.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2015, 12:59:32 pm
and a real hero
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 01:13:04 pm
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Leshma on October 12, 2015, 01:33:03 pm
What do you call it when its a shitpost but its not funny or offensive?

Shitposting doesn't have anything to do with audience, you aren't trying to entertain them. It is a nice way to deal with mental constipation, nothing else. You have a stress in your life and there are few places where you can vent it out. Lifting weights in the gym or running in the park, yell at your parents or siblings, be rude to your girlfriend/boyfriend, do something stupid in school/work, get into a fight at public place, shoot at people with automatic rifle your grandpa gifted to you... or go to your favorite Internet forum/shithole and take it out on dwellers of that fine establishment.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 01:34:17 pm
Shitposting doesn't have anything to do with audience, you aren't trying to entertain them. It is a nice way to deal with mental constipation, nothing else. You have a stress in your life and there are few places where you can vent it out. Lifting weights in the gym or running in the park, yell at your parents or siblings, be rude to your girlfriend/boyfriend, do something stupid in school/work, get into a fight at public place, shoot at people with automatic rifle your grandpa gifted to you... or go to your favorite Internet forum/shithole and take it out on dwellers of that fine establishment.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Paul on October 12, 2015, 01:35:32 pm
Xant reminds me of yesterday's student who is trying to prove to everyone that he has grown and now he is a person and not just a cunt, placing clever things from books blogs that he read over the summer  :o

He is still just an insufferable xant.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 01:38:16 pm
You're really impressed with that joke, Paul, aren't you?

http://forum.melee.org/historical-discussion/world-war-2-written-by-winners/msg892636/#msg892636
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/law-enforcement-in-america/msg986382/#msg986382
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg1122967/#msg1122967

New news: it's not particularly funny.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on October 12, 2015, 03:16:46 pm
You're really impressed with that joke, Paul, aren't you?

http://forum.melee.org/historical-discussion/world-war-2-written-by-winners/msg892636/#msg892636
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/law-enforcement-in-america/msg986382/#msg986382
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg1122967/#msg1122967

New news: it's not particularly funny.

It can be, if more people start calling you that. Same as with Kafein being a vihecul. Imo it gets funnier every year.

May be if your title would change to insufferable Finnish pony, hmmm...
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 03:20:01 pm
I mean, Xant=xunt=cunt is funny enough, ok, but where is the humor in a completely out of context "insufferable xunt" 5 times, it doesn't even make sense as a reply to Vovka's post now. I'm just trying to be helpful here, help Paul up his humor game.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Moncho on October 12, 2015, 03:28:27 pm
You are an insufferable xant therefore your opinion is invalid. There, happy?
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 03:34:58 pm
You are an insufferable xant therefore your opinion is invalid. There, happy?
What do you get when you cross a joke with a rhetorical question?
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Umbra on October 12, 2015, 05:32:50 pm

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Utrakil on October 12, 2015, 07:13:18 pm
I have mistaken my lack of sympathy for intelligence, my apathy for realism, and my profound narcissism for confidence.
Thats the first sentence you wrote so far that impressed me.
Where did you copypaste that?
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Molly on October 12, 2015, 07:30:19 pm
I mean, Xant=xunt=cunt is funny enough, ok, but where is the humor in a completely out of context "insufferable xunt" 5 times, it doesn't even make sense as a reply to Vovka's post now. I'm just trying to be helpful here, help Paul up his humor game.
I believe Paul is, like me, German, therefore we are incapable of proper humour, you fucking cunt!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Kafein on October 12, 2015, 07:38:42 pm
I have mistaken my lack of sympathy for intelligence, my apathy for realism, and my profound narcissism for confidence.

I'm actually surprised this did not immediately return a famous quote upon searching.

Oh well, the thing that did show up was funny enough: http://10-instant.okcupid.com/profile/the_unfettered

Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 12, 2015, 07:47:16 pm
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Paul on October 12, 2015, 08:37:38 pm
he mad
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2015, 10:42:46 pm
Same as with Kafein being a vihecul. Imo it gets funnier every year.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 01:30:31 am
he mad
y so mad
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 01:08:22 pm


http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/fapocalypse/msg1105473/#msg1105473

Still mad?  :mad:
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Siiem on October 13, 2015, 04:46:20 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 13, 2015, 07:08:51 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 07:21:02 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

You shut your fucking mouth you good-for-nothing cocksucking no-load shit-for-brained pencil-dicked pus-nutted sphinchter-lipping world class cockbreath.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 13, 2015, 07:29:40 pm
You shut your fucking mouth you good-for-nothing cocksucking no-load shit-for-brained pencil-dicked pus-nutted sphinchter-lipping world class cockbreath.

Ad hominem
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 07:45:42 pm
Ad hominem
Tu quoque.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Asheram on October 13, 2015, 09:13:00 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Bjord on October 13, 2015, 09:24:48 pm
You shut your fucking mouth you good-for-nothing cocksucking no-load shit-for-brained pencil-dicked pus-nutted sphinchter-lipping world class cockbreath.

Literally a shit post.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 09:58:05 pm
Literally a shit post.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Bjord on October 13, 2015, 10:25:34 pm

It's spelt sphinxter, you fuckwit.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 10:30:26 pm
Well, Bjord, I was hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Siiem on October 13, 2015, 10:32:48 pm
It's spelt sphinxter, you fuckwit.

It is spelt "sphincter", though.

Unless you're a furry? NSFW
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 10:37:02 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphincter
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Bjord on October 13, 2015, 10:42:54 pm
It is spelt "sphincter", though.

Nobody asked you Siiem you spineless maggot fuck I can snap you in two pieces.

Xant, you nasty monotone reptile Finn. Your schemery simply does not end. I never said any of that.
I never say I'm a realist, and you already used that word not long ago describing yourself, nice try though.

Okay so it is spelt sphincter, still a shitpost.

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 10:44:15 pm
A+ damage control, Bjordy.
Title: Re: Ad Hominem & You: 3 Things You'll Be Perplexed And Amazed By On A Forum
Post by: Bjord on October 13, 2015, 10:51:40 pm
A+ damage control, Bjordy.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login