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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => The Chamber of Tears => Topic started by: Ikarus on August 14, 2015, 10:12:15 pm

Title: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Ikarus on August 14, 2015, 10:12:15 pm
like, holy shit this class became super inefficient

I tried lance cav for 2 weeks again because of nostalgia. It´s not that you get shot that fast, if you move with the team and keep an eye on surroundings, you manage to not get shot.

but:
everything and everybody outreaches you. Outreaches a damn LANCE, a weapon, whichs only purpose is to OUTREACH other people. Back when I played cav, people didn´t even think about going against a charging lance cav, because they simply couldn´t outreach it (as long as the timing of the lancer was right), nowadays even 1h countercharge you and sometimes even sorta manage to get you. Why? Because they trust in the fact that you will get a shitty lance angle and simply glance, which happens way to often. They know how to move and position themselves so your angle gets shitty. What can you do about it? Ye, slow down and correct the angle instead of charging full speed. But this brings another problem: by slowing down, you attack will loose all of its impact and your damage will be reduced to a pile of poop (or, of course, simply glance). I bet your horse will even rear for no reason. Again.

also:
All poles can stop a stomping, 180km/h whaletank-horse, even god damned wooden staffs. This. should. not. be. It is a mind-bendingly, plain stupid mechanic and I have no idea why somebody gave EVERY polearm this cav-instant-stop bonus. Shouldn´t this bonus belong to pikes and stuff?

The main purpose of polearm infantry characters, who were mainly used as anticav, is also gone since it´s no problem for a 2h to stop any cav. Ever seen a 2h doing a downblock when a lance cav charges? Me neither. They brainlessly charge a heavy lance cav and are successful with it. Not even a heavy lance and good timing can help you there.

And yee, last but not least, they of course get shot easily, but that´s mainly a question of positioning yourself and proper dodging.


Almost 5 years and this is the first thread in the chamber of tears  :? had to get some steam off, feels strangely good now


lance cav = dead class
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Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: BlackxBird on August 14, 2015, 10:26:26 pm
only poles with pierce stop horses ;) and yes it is pretty hard to play lancer, but actually with some training u should be able to get back in. Got my highest records as lance cav, for exampele 9 times valour in a row :D

but tbh the last real active lance cavs are me musashi and torben :D the rest are all gone :D
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Teeth on August 14, 2015, 11:27:00 pm
Huh, last time I played lance cav I would have agreed that it is pretty gimpy, but that was because archers could 2-3 shot my horse even if I avoided going anywhere within a 50 meter range of them. This makes getting a good score a very risky proposition, because as soon as any archer decides you are a threat, your horse is history.

I definitely disagree that Heavy Lance and good timing cannot help you. I think the Heavy Lance outreaches every single 1h stab, all polearm stabs up to about 160 length and 2h stabs up to about 125 length. These are just my estimates from experience, but I felt like I could outreach 90% of the people on the field. That is, if I play perfectly, which I never do. Outreaching people at the end of this spectrum is risky, but perfectly possible, its the true test of cav skill. Slow down your horse slightly to throw off their timing and to make yours more accurate.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Ikarus on August 15, 2015, 12:42:01 am
Alright, then I obviously just suck at it :D

better stick to my lovely arbalest then, easy mode all the way

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Algarn on August 15, 2015, 01:02:49 am
Played cav 1h/Pole one gen, 21/18 at level 34. Mostly using heavy gear + destrier, light lance and nordic nobleman sword. That was nicer than what I expected but I must admit. And from my experience from the other side, any archer with something above 8PD should focus on dangerous horsemen, and take down their horses, considering how easy light horses (destrier is more or less included) are easy to kill with these PD values.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Ikarus on August 15, 2015, 10:22:11 am
you can easily 1shot a charging destrier with an arbalest  :?
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: BlackxBird on August 15, 2015, 11:24:30 am
with my arabian I get one hit by nearly every melee weapon... Pretty annoying cuz I don't have ath, shield and IF :3
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: POOPHAMMER on August 15, 2015, 11:47:05 am
Quote from: Ikarus on August 15, 2015, 10:22:11 am
you can easily 1shot a charging destrier with an arbalest  :?

Lesson of the day: Do not charge ranged. Simple concept for staying alive as cav.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: BlackxBird on August 15, 2015, 01:09:31 pm
pff longbows can shoot longer than 50 meters... if there is one focusing u, you will simply die.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Mr.K. on August 15, 2015, 01:34:07 pm
If you think lance cav is dead, try 1H cav. Who even plays that anymore?

Lances still outreach pretty much any player on the field like Teeth said. It's all about skill and nowadays we're lacking skilled cavalry - Musashi and Oberyn being the exceptions imo. However archers, xbows and throwers are a real problem and like I've said in other topics, I think the current balance makes "heavy" horses completely useless.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: BlackxBird on August 15, 2015, 01:36:55 pm
the heavy ones die even faster than the light ones, cuz the heavy ones are so DAMN FUCKING SLOW. Most archers can shoot 3 times before u find something u can hide behind.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Gravoth_iii on August 15, 2015, 03:02:06 pm
Played some heavy cav recently, my horse nearly never died to ranged.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: BlackxBird on August 15, 2015, 06:22:25 pm
yes for some reason there are almost no ranged the last days :D but sometimes it's just unplayable..
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Palurgee on August 15, 2015, 06:28:00 pm
I've played the past three gens as 1h/shield and it is far too easy to sidestep and swing at an oncoming lancer cav -- which deals a lot of damage thanks to the ridiculous speed bonus, enough that you can take these horses out in one hit if they're unarmored. Lower mobility horses (armored ones) just don't have the maneuverability to dodge the sidestep, and higher mobility horses (unarmored) are so ridiculously vulnerable to archers that they're hardly a threat. And even if the horseman is smart enough to predict a sidestep, his attack is useless just by downblocking.

It's sad that what should be the high damage, high speed knights of the battlefield are so gimpy and useless! I'd like to see horses made much stronger.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: BlackxBird on August 15, 2015, 06:54:49 pm
just make bump slashs more effective. I hit archers partly 3-4 times and they're like yolo let's stand up again...
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Ikarus on August 15, 2015, 08:39:52 pm
Quote from: Mr.K. on August 15, 2015, 01:34:07 pm
If you think lance cav is dead, try 1H cav. Who even plays that anymore?

saw 2 1h cav guys today fuckin stuff up (none of them was gravoth)
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Gurnisson on August 15, 2015, 08:41:42 pm
And you'll see lancers do well too. I'd definitely say lancers are stronger than slashing cav nowadays, but that's not saying much about lance cav tbh.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Ikarus on August 16, 2015, 02:31:18 am
Quote from: Ikarus on August 15, 2015, 12:42:01 am
Alright, then I obviously just suck at it

the truth hurts

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Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Gravoth_iii on August 16, 2015, 04:52:00 am
Quote from: Ikarus on August 15, 2015, 08:39:52 pm
saw 2 1h cav guys today fuckin stuff up (none of them was gravoth)

I suck at cav, and i dont play anymore since like 2 weeks, too much lag and too much character creation after updationg ot windows 10
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Ujin on August 21, 2015, 02:12:48 pm
Lance cav is actually quite balanced atm, at least when it comes to fighting melee classes, you just gotta be smart about your angles, speed,manouvering and picking your targets. The main issue though is the damage that ranged (pretty much all of them) classes do to cav.

My padded warhorse dies from 2-3 shots max, so when i charge at a pack of archers i'm basically taking one for the team cause they all concentrate on me, plus when (no ifs) i get dehorsed i get to annoy them some more as a shielder.

Overall, the class is not as fun as it used to be ( i loved cav fights back in the days with crazy angles), but still very viable, although kinda squishy.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: BlackxBird on August 21, 2015, 07:11:48 pm
Quote from: Ujin on August 21, 2015, 02:12:48 pm
Lance cav is actually quite balanced atm, at least when it comes to fighting melee classes, you just gotta be smart about your angles, speed,manouvering and picking your targets. The main issue though is the damage that ranged (pretty much all of them) classes do to cav.

My padded warhorse dies from 2-3 shots max, so when i charge at a pack of archers i'm basically taking one for the team cause they all concentrate on me, plus when (no ifs) i get dehorsed i get to annoy them some more as a shielder.

Overall, the class is not as fun as it used to be ( i loved cav fights back in the days with crazy angles), but still very viable, although kinda squishy.

the thing is just atm u really need IF and ATH and I don't fucking wanna play as melee when I play cav. Hell why would I buy a horse then.... U can't really do the op builds when u don't go full tryhard, for example when I play with my 24 24 I get rekt imo when  I just yolocharge things.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Legs on August 21, 2015, 08:19:33 pm
I use arabian warhorse which is suuuper fragile, however it has high maneuver stat so I can control it very well. That enables me to mitigate a LOT of damage either by avoiding and being hard to hit or by controlling my speed for lower or negative bonus. Pathing also plays a big part obviously. For example, using cover to screen my advance, hitting an archer at full speed then running off - by the time that anyone's noticed me I'm already fleeing so any arrows they shoot will do a lot less damage. Likewise slowing down when approaching alert infantry. It lowers damage they (well, and you) do and it also throws off their timing. A horse charging at full speed is easy to predict, but irregular speeds can definitely give you an edge in head on confrontations. Even against pikes and spears, often they'll thrust too early then I'll hit them before they can recover.

That's all harder on less maneuverable horses of course, with heavy horses the playstyle is more direct. More relying on the horse's armor to tank hits than skillful control. Lower populations are part of the problem. Cavalry is a class where at best you're superman and at worse you just die faster. For skilled cav they really shine when there are tons of  nice soft unaware targets and they can chain hits one after another. In lower population cavalry is less effective, and in the reverse archers are more effective. What ends up happening is that there'll only be a couple of enemy cavalry and archers are free to pew at them endlessly as long as they're in sight. Maps are also an issue, since many of them are not friendly to cavalry.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Palurgee on August 21, 2015, 11:38:20 pm
Quote from: Legs on August 21, 2015, 08:19:33 pm
In lower population cavalry is less effective

Quote from: Legs on August 21, 2015, 08:19:33 pm
Maps are also an issue


Pretty much this.
Title: Re: Lance cav is a fucking dead class
Post by: Protemus on September 16, 2015, 01:26:33 am
lance cav = dead class
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Nice ass