cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Palurgee on June 25, 2015, 11:25:21 pm

Title: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Palurgee on June 25, 2015, 11:25:21 pm

With the release of the new Executioner Sword (which is faster, longer, and deals as much damage as 1h axes while in 1h mode, and ALSO has a 2h mode) I thought I ought to make this thread again  :rolleyes:

One-handed axes Overhaul

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Main points and suggestions:

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Point 1: Adding diversity to one-handed weapons - all one handers are remarkably similar, especially compared to the polearms and two-handers. The only real "diversity" between the weapons is can it thrust?
Point 2: Representing axes with greater (well, at least some) historical accuracy - single-handed axes were designed for offensive, rapid, shock combat
Point 3: Filling niches - "shield-breaking" is a very weak niche, and one-handed axes could represent a much larger one


Suggestions to point 1: add the "Unbalanced" tag to all one-handed axes
Suggestions for point 2: increases the speed of all one-handed axes by 5 points (this would mean the Broad One Handed Battle Axe has a speed of 103)
Suggestions for point 3: decrease the damage of all one-handed axes by 2-3 points

What would this accomplish?

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Diversity: One-handed axes would become a much more offensive choice of weapon. The unbalanced tag means that they are harder to use and also harder to block, parry, and feint with. The additional speed to the axe would also contribute to its offensive nature, since a user can strike a greater number of times in a shorter period of time. The naturally shorter reach of the axes compliments this further, as it requires the user to get up close and personal with his/her foe.

Historical accuracy: as previously said, axes are meant to be offensive weapons. They ARE unbalanced (majority of the weight is in the ax head), and most medieval single-handed axe fighting techniques involved using their lack of balance to create a rapid swinging momentum, not just hacking into whatever was in front of you.

Niche-filling: these overhauled axes would compliment any build, agility or strength based. They would still preserve their shield-breaking quality, but also be useful as an offensive shock weapon for archers and shielders, especially effective against users of the heavier two-handed weapons and polearms.

I also think that this is fairly simple as far as "overhauls" go, since its mostly just scaling the item stats. I don't know about the unbalanced part though, since there are no unbalanced one handed weapons, if it requires new mechanics or if it's something altogether impossible.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 25, 2015, 11:31:54 pm

**leans slightly left, glares at the screen through squinted eyes, slowly nods**

I agree. Right on. Currently, one handed axes are good for nothing but shield busting, and thats not a huge advantage when only 3 guys on a server have shields normally.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: BlackxBird on June 26, 2015, 12:02:26 am

U wanna give shielder unbalanced weapons? Don't think there is allready engine for that cuz stuff like the morningstar is balanced when used in 1H

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Nehvar on June 26, 2015, 12:09:39 am

I disagree with your solution.  If the executioner sword is too powerful in one-handed mode then the answer is to nerf the one-handed mode of the executioner sword.  Buffing all one-handed axes to counter-balance one weapon just doesn't make sense.  Also you need to consider the fact that axes have the "Bonus against Shield" attribute where as the executioner sword does not.  Even so, it is, in my opinion at least, too powerful when compared in a more apples-to-apples setting to other one-handed swords.  Particularly the military cleaver which it simply dominates at the moment.  (It gets four length, one speed and a shitty but still there stab over the cleaver.)

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Palurgee on June 26, 2015, 12:16:24 am

Quote from: Nehvar on June 26, 2015, 12:09:39 am

I disagree with your solution.  If the executioner sword is too powerful in one-handed mode then the answer is to nerf the one-handed mode of the executioner sword.  Buffing all one-handed axes to counter-balance one weapon just doesn't make sense.  Also you need to consider the fact that axes have the "Bonus against Shield" attribute where as the executioner sword does not.  Even so, it is, in my opinion at least, too powerful when compared in a more apples-to-apples setting to other one-handed swords.  Particularly the military cleaver which it simply dominates at the moment.  (It gets four length, one speed and a shitty but still there stab over the cleaver.)

This isn't in response to the executioner sword directly, I've always felt that the one handed axes are underpowered, the executioner sword just further exemplifies that. Also worth noting how petty the "bonus versus shields" ability really is since breaking a shield has a very minimal influence on actual combat between two skilled players. One handers are faster without a shield and a skilled player does not need a shield to block.

edit: evidently one-handers are not faster without a shield

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Gurnisson on June 26, 2015, 12:23:01 am

Quote from: Palurgee on June 26, 2015, 12:16:24 am

One handers are faster without a shield

No

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Jona on June 26, 2015, 06:00:17 am

Arguably 1handers can feint faster without a shield though, if someone is using one of the slower shields, right? If true, this would lend to their "speediness without a shield" imo.

As for the OP's suggestion, I for one think adding the unbalanced tag to 1handers is something that is long overdue. It is a pretty fun mechanic for adding diversity to the weapon selection. However I wouldn't necessarily agree with buffing their speed insanely and lowering their cut damage... then they go from "slow/strong shield breakers" to "unbalanced 3-directional swords that are good against shields." Instead I would just buff their damage and maybe tweak the speed a little bit accordingly. Maybe make some unbalanced/faster and make some unbalanced/stronger so that there is some variety among them instead of them all being slow or all being fast. The low-tier axes could be the faster shield breakers while the expensive ones with huge heads could be the slower ones that pack a punch. The same could be done to some maces, imo. Make some like the outclassed iberian unbalanced but stronger compared to the balanced spathovaklion (and please ffs remove that thing's stab).

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Gurnisson on June 26, 2015, 10:14:07 am

Quote from: Jona on June 26, 2015, 06:00:17 am

Arguably 1handers can feint faster without a shield though, if someone is using one of the slower shields, right?

Well, not faster per se, but you have no delay when falling back to the block in the middle of your feints. The visuals of all shields being raised has the same speed, and the feinting works similarly to that without a shield. The feints are however easier to read which makes people assume that feints without one are faster.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Kenda on June 26, 2015, 01:35:29 pm

Maybe the suggestion is not the most solid, pretty decent but if someone wanted to play 1h axe without shield it would be really hard being unbalanced, fast unbalanced weapons really doesnt make sense either. Making weapons more diverse would be a great thing though, maybe some can be unbalanced aswell as adding other unique features, overhead only maybe?  :twisted:

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 04:54:40 pm

Can someone please explain what unbalanced even does? I have never really noticed a difference with weapons with this tag, besides they are usually very slow.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Palurgee on June 26, 2015, 08:03:24 pm

Quote from: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 04:54:40 pm

Can someone please explain what unbalanced even does? I have never really noticed a difference with weapons with this tag, besides they are usually very slow.

Unbalanced means that you have less of a window to stop an attack, and it takes longer to recover from a swing. This means feinting is more difficult and missing a swing is about as bad as being temporarily stunned.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 08:29:17 pm

Quote from: Palurgee on June 26, 2015, 08:03:24 pm

Unbalanced means that you have less of a window to stop an attack, and it takes longer to recover from a swing. This means feinting is more difficult and missing a swing is about as bad as being temporarily stunned.

Wait do you mean less of a window to chamber? How can you have less time to block?

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Jona on June 26, 2015, 08:40:30 pm

Quote from: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 08:29:17 pm

Wait do you mean less of a window to chamber? How can you have less time to block?

No, the chambering window is the same, and he didn't really say it could take longer to block, but as he did mention, if you miss a swing you minds well be stunned. Basically, with an unbalanced weapon, you almost always have to complete the entire swing animation before you can do anything else, since cancelling the swing (and especially feinting) is nearly impossible most of the time. With any balanced weapon you can feint with ease and cancel the swing at any point, really, depending on your wpf with that weapon type. It is almost guaranteed that you can cancel the swing in the first half or so of the swinging animation, but after that can be tricky. With an unbalanced weapon you'd be lucky to cancel it within the first tenth of the animation.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 09:48:11 pm

Quote from: Jona on June 26, 2015, 08:40:30 pm

No, the chambering window is the same, and he didn't really say it could take longer to block, but as he did mention, if you miss a swing you minds well be stunned. Basically, with an unbalanced weapon, you almost always have to complete the entire swing animation before you can do anything else, since cancelling the swing (and especially feinting) is nearly impossible most of the time. With any balanced weapon you can feint with ease and cancel the swing at any point, really, depending on your wpf with that weapon type. It is almost guaranteed that you can cancel the swing in the first half or so of the swinging animation, but after that can be tricky. With an unbalanced weapon you'd be lucky to cancel it within the first tenth of the animation.

Oh so basically you just cannot cancel an attack.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: McKli_PL on June 26, 2015, 11:08:02 pm

You can cancel in early or mid animation not in late animation, feints are bit different on those weps and they'r much better to abuse if ur know how it works, u can brake whole animation (like on GLB) with cancel and hit very,very strange bugged swing.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Leshma on June 27, 2015, 01:04:30 am

One handed axes were buffed quite a bit, they used to be weaker. Right now they are badass and have secondary pierce mode.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 27, 2015, 02:18:55 am

Quote from: Leshma on June 27, 2015, 01:04:30 am

One handed axes were buffed quite a bit, they used to be weaker. Right now they are badass and have secondary pierce mode.

Only the axes with a little spike on the back. And blunt does more damage for its range, and swords are much faster.... Why use an axe as of now? besides shield busting of course.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Leshma on June 27, 2015, 03:15:01 am

MW Broad One Handed Battle Axe is quite a bit faster than my MW Spathion and I find it better for feinting. Deals massive cut damage and has very useful secondary mode. Only downside, it is a bit short. When I bring both those weapons, I have tools to deal with anything.

Title: Re: Overhaul/buff one-handed axes
Post by: Akavirius on June 28, 2015, 12:50:35 pm

I agree with you Jona. Making both faster and (somewhat) weak and stronger and slow unbalanced axes and maces would be good, as it would add more diversity to the game.