cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Panos_ on May 18, 2015, 11:00:36 am

Title: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Panos_ on May 18, 2015, 11:00:36 am
Can we give a try to those two tweaks please?


Switch the requirement for the shield skill to STR instead of AGI, and add Power Draw to crossbows aswell.


Thanks.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on May 18, 2015, 11:29:13 am
Why the fuck would a crossbow require power draw?
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Panos_ on May 18, 2015, 11:29:40 am
Why the fuck would a crossbow require power draw?

Why the fuck not?
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Siiem on May 18, 2015, 12:10:18 pm
Why the fuck not?

Because you use either your body or a crank to draw it.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Grumbs on May 18, 2015, 12:58:27 pm
Why the fuck would a crossbow require power draw?

Because XBows are the only thing in the game with 0 requirements. You don't even need to dedicate all your WPF into them. While other builds might need to sacrifice something for their ranged ability for the sake of balance, xbowers lose next to nothing
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: witchkun on May 18, 2015, 01:34:27 pm
Switch the requirement for the shield skill to STR instead of AGI

and you will get a bunch of strwhore shielders with unbreakable shields, great idea..
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Panos_ on May 18, 2015, 01:35:52 pm
and you will get a bunch of strwhore shielders with unbreakable shields, great idea..


beats having all those scimmitar/pick high ath spammers
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Grumbs on May 18, 2015, 02:13:48 pm
and you will get a bunch of strwhore shielders with unbreakable shields, great idea..

I think its easier to beat a slow moving shielder than a fast one. You can see that with the number of people who don't take a heavy shield, or try taking 2 shields with 1 on your back for the movement speed penalty.  Easier to nudge them, easier to circle strafe, easier to dodge their shorter range etc. If someone wants an unbreakable shield you can do it already while also being uncatchable.

Not that I think its an important change to make. I'm not really sold either way since balanced builds are kind of the norm anyway and you don't really need more than 5-6 in shield skill
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 18, 2015, 02:26:54 pm
If soo put str requirement on some shields

but keep shield skill based on agi
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: woody on May 18, 2015, 02:43:29 pm
Oh dear, x bows need power draw? Wtf?

If you are going to nerf it just make x bows less accurate or something rather than a nonsensical nerf.

On shields I believe shield use should be strength based and shield skill should be agi based. Wow - isnt that what every other form of Warband has? Never understood why being really agile meant you could hold a fucking great heavy shield, or why a huge strong guy cant even pick up a small shield, a crpg anomaly based on balance and no other reason at all.

Oh and as a fairly big guy when I tried to draw a 140lb warbow I couldnt quite do it, power draw would need specific training. Guy whose bow it was while heavily muscled was quite small ie 90kg or so.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 18, 2015, 04:19:30 pm

beats having all those scimmitar/pick high ath spammers

Strength shielder is by far stronger (i would argue the strongest class in the game) than agi shielder. Also implying everyone doesnt stop at 5 shield skill anyways, and no one would go below 15 agi/str at this high level patch. Literally wouldnt change a thing.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: BlackxBird on May 18, 2015, 04:27:54 pm
Well powerdraw for a xbow would kinda make sense cuz to reload a normal xbow without special eq you need to be very strong^^ or maybe something like xbow reloading skill. So wpf makes the xbow more accurate and the reloading skill makes the reloading faster (I think those ones who trained reloading a xbow in medival could do that in like half of the time a normal soldiers needs)
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Siiem on May 19, 2015, 12:54:58 am
Because XBows are the only thing in the game with 0 requirements. You don't even need to dedicate all your WPF into them. While other builds might need to sacrifice something for their ranged ability for the sake of balance, xbowers lose next to nothing

I really don't give a shit. :)
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: BlackxBird on May 19, 2015, 01:21:19 pm
Last time we defended Sargoth (in strat) me and arn were standing on a tower and shot down, without any xbow wpf we were able to hit enemies up to 50-60 meters away from us and we were able to compete with enemy archers :3 This is kinda completely ridiculous cuz when you give a normal person a xbow he'd may be able to shoot like 10-15 meters.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on May 19, 2015, 01:34:32 pm
Last time we defended Sargoth (in strat) me and arn were standing on a tower and shot down, without any xbow wpf we were able to hit enemies up to 50-60 meters away from us and we were able to compete with enemy archers :3 This is kinda completely ridiculous cuz when you give a normal person a xbow he'd may be able to shoot like 10-15 meters.

You ever shoot a crossbow? It isn't that hard to do. First time I shot one I hit a target from about 140 feet off(which is like 40 meters or something?) pretty easily.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: BlackxBird on May 19, 2015, 01:38:09 pm
:O really? Well my neighbour has one and well it wasn't that easy for me :3
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Panos_ on May 19, 2015, 02:30:15 pm
Ok, I will justify why I think those two tweaks are needed.


First of all, as Grumbs mentioned already, crossbowing is the only class that apart from the WPF, doesnt require anything else, which makes it the best ranged weapon for hybrid builds.

Throwing and Bows require power throw, and power draw, which means  things.

If you are a thrower and want to inflict serious damage, rather than trolling, you need to spend at least 6 points into power throw, which leaves you with 3 less attribute skills, or 0 IF.

The same applies for archery.



So yeah, power draw for crossbows is a must.


Now regarding the shields, don`t you find it redicoulus that a guy with 3 STR can carry a huscarl shield? And apart from that, high agility shielders receive 2 bonuses.

1. High speed bonus damage, due to the high agility/athletics
2. Durable shields


On the other hand, high damage is justified, because the player invested on a Strength build, so yeah, I prefer strong shielder because of their build, rather than left swing spammers.





Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 19, 2015, 04:18:51 pm

Now regarding the shields, don`t you find it redicoulus that a guy with 3 STR can carry a huscarl shield? And apart from that, high agility shielders receive 2 bonuses.

1. High speed bonus damage, due to the high agility/athletics
2. Durable shields


On the other hand, high damage is justified, because the player invested on a Strength build, so yeah, I prefer strong shielder because of their build, rather than left swing spammers.

Damage difference is not that big, but i think strenght shielder hits a bit harder. And who uses huscarl shield with 3 str? that defeats the whole purpose of being high agi when weighing you down so much. Also like i said, barely anyone goes beyond 5 shield skill, so shields are basically just as durable for both str and agi whores.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Ikarus on May 19, 2015, 08:30:57 pm
so if we´re really realistic, arbalest needs 0 strength then?  :mrgreen:
(click to show/hide)

does xbow then get damage bonus or what? Because damage bonus would make no sense.

and if xbow additionally needs power draw without getting any bonuses, people will just switch to thrower or archer

because then, the amount of points you would have to shove into this class would be upright RUBBISH

of course it would be realistic, but the amount of points wouldn´t be worth the efficiency. All other classes would be easier to play then.
 A lot of things aren´t realistic in mount and blade, but some things would destroy the balance. No lousy arrow would ever penetrate a plate armor, etc...

and I´m not saying all of this because I´m an xbow myself  :mrgreen:


crossbows were used by the french because everybody was able to use it and it needed less training than archery. I think medieval men were in general stronger than people today, so a simple STR restriction is fine
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 19, 2015, 08:37:40 pm
You don't need to reload a bow or throwing weapon after each shot. Holy shit dude.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Nightmare798 on May 19, 2015, 08:43:02 pm
Because XBows are the only thing in the game with 0 requirements. You don't even need to dedicate all your WPF into them. While other builds might need to sacrifice something for their ranged ability for the sake of balance, xbowers lose next to nothing

You can shoot three arrows for every crossbow bolt. I think that is penalty enough.

Also I agree on shields, Why the fuck not.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Algarn on May 19, 2015, 11:48:13 pm
You can shoot three arrows for every crossbow bolt. I think that is penalty enough.

Depends of the bow, the crossbow, and the builds used for each. If you use a regular crossbow with high wpf, you'll spam bolts.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Ikarus on May 20, 2015, 12:02:37 am
Depends of the bow, the crossbow, and the builds used for each. If you use a regular crossbow with high wpf, you'll spam bolts.

yeh, with normal xbow a couple of low dmg bolts. And for that much wpf on xbow, you´ll be pretty useless, or at least very weak, in melee. A bow would still be more efficient for that kind of work  :P
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: jtobiasm on May 20, 2015, 12:05:04 am
Stevie wonder could kill a cunt with a crossbow their that easy to use
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 20, 2015, 02:39:09 am
Depends of the bow, the crossbow, and the builds used for each. If you use a regular crossbow with high wpf, you'll spam bolts.

I've done a couple gens as 180+ WPF regular crossbow builds. It's nice to be able to wear medium-heavy armor and still have crazy reload speed/accuracy. However, the same build for archery will shoot faster with ANY bow than you can reload that xbow.

I've done pure xbow, pure arbalest, hybrid xbow, hybrid archer, 24/18 archer, 18/24 archer, and most recently 18/30 archer (210 WPF with a yumi, would recommend). Each has their own strong and weak points. Crossbows are more expensive to upkeep, have to be reloaded between shots, and have a lower absolute limit to their power. They don't require skill point investment, and don't lose accuracy as you hold a shot.

IMO, they are easier to use but have a lower skill ceiling than bows do. The two weapon types are pretty balanced, and adding a powerdraw requirement to crossbows would mess things up.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Panos_ on May 20, 2015, 10:21:54 am
You don't need to reload a bow or throwing weapon after each shot. Holy shit dude.


If the power draw skill gets added for xbowing aswell, the more Power Draw you have, the faster you will reload you xbow.

Thats how you balance the nerf.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Algarn on May 20, 2015, 05:49:19 pm
Even tho that mod is ded and blabla, it's worth looking at it. Making a poll would be good too.
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Grumbs on May 20, 2015, 07:06:53 pm
so if we´re really realistic, arbalest needs 0 strength then?  :mrgreen:
(click to show/hide)

does xbow then get damage bonus or what? Because damage bonus would make no sense.

and if xbow additionally needs power draw without getting any bonuses, people will just switch to thrower or archer

because then, the amount of points you would have to shove into this class would be upright RUBBISH

of course it would be realistic, but the amount of points wouldn´t be worth the efficiency. All other classes would be easier to play then.
 A lot of things aren´t realistic in mount and blade, but some things would destroy the balance. No lousy arrow would ever penetrate a plate armor, etc...

and I´m not saying all of this because I´m an xbow myself  :mrgreen:


crossbows were used by the french because everybody was able to use it and it needed less training than archery. I think medieval men were in general stronger than people today, so a simple STR restriction is fine

These are kind of red herrings imo. This is not being presented as a "realism" argument, its purely about game balance. Maybe you can shoehorn in some realism arguments but that is very secondary

The other red herring is the idea that xbows wouldn't get a damage bonus from having to put points into power draw. Bows and throwing all have reduced damage that is then increased based on how many points you add. The same thing would happen with xbows (base damage reduced while current damage would be there for people who put in about 5-6 points like archers/throwers do, and each point of PD would reduce your WPF a bit). Not that it matters that much though, you can just balance the damage based on the PD requirement

Currently the trade off against archers is increased damage/stun, lower weight, less WPF needed to be accurate and easier points & click shooting mechanics in exchange for slower reload speed. Not saying archers and throwers are well balanced against melee, or even have good intra ranged balance but xbowers have historically got the easy ride when it comes to ranged classes
Title: Re: Shield skill requires STR instead of AGI, and Crossbows require powerdraw.
Post by: Ikarus on May 20, 2015, 07:59:39 pm
If the power draw skill gets added for xbowing aswell, the more Power Draw you have, the faster you will reload you xbow.

So I´d take away 2 points from my IF and 2 points from my PS, resulting in 4 PS, 4 IF. If I´m funny I´d even take away 3 points from each, so I could put 6 points onto power draw. Then I´d put 4-6 points into power draw and would be able to reload my arbalest as fast as heavy xbow or faster.

Xbows. Xbows everywhere. Imagine a build with barely wpf in xbow, but tons of points in power draw and high athletics. Shotgun runner.

I´m a bit afraid that this solution will bring up another bunch of problems. Anyways, most important imo is the teambalance and server lag fix.

Quote
base damage reduced while current damage would be there for people who put in about 5-6 points like archers/throwers do
interesting idea, but I don´t wanna be the guy who has to balance that one out