American news outlets have also been reluctant to use the word “genocide” to describe Turkey’s crimes. The phrase “Armenian genocide” did not appear in the New York Times until 2004.
inb4 it didn't happen
I've never linked events to the whole nation but rather to group of people directly involved into it but this is just wow.
denying it ever happened, called Armenian people names, said they deserve to die, not being humans, how they would kill them even today, denounced existence of Kurdish minority etc.
The turks have always very heavly denied this, due to i assume atleast generations being taught that every single part of it is faked. Even the turkish ambassadors all around the world keep claiming its all bullshit. Stating that it was all made up by the USSR.
As far as I know, no historical event on earth is so heavly denied as the turks denying the Armenian genocide. They will never admit it, thats very certain.
Why should I feel responsible and say sorry for something a cunt called Enver(Pan-Turkist leader of Union and Progress Party- ordered, then fled the country?
Why is everyone so deeply interested?
Rather than talking about whether it happened or not, I would like to ask the question "Why is everyone so deeply interested?"Same reason why denying Holocaust, for example, is a terrible thing to do. Plenty of countries and people try to brush uncomfortable historical facts aside or make them seem less important, but far fewer actually go ahead and outright deny them. Because it is historical revisionism and should be be abhorred in a modern society.
Rather than talking about whether it happened or not, I would like to ask the question "Why is everyone so deeply interested?"
Young turks are trouble in Germany too.
You realize how it has become a handle attached to Germans too, right? It is impossible nowadays to talk to a foreigner as a German dude without getting the good old natzee stereotype. I don't necessarily have to be German myself to notice it. I do witness it all the time. It is hideous. It is disgusting. It may not work as a politically influential handle against a big nation like Germany, yet people love to smear it on Germans' faces time and time again. What are they supposed to do? Walk around with heads covered with paper bags?
The truth is, ugly and horrible things happened in everyone's histories. The peace should come naturally on a domestic level, not through constant external nagging. If western countries were truly honest with their caring attitude towards mass killings, they would have never daftly allowed the emergence of, say, ISIS. That shit is happening presently, you know. It is not something of 100 years of age. After feeding these goat fuckers, arming and letting them rampage, all those responsible are sitting in their TV armchairs and watching them kill infants, rape women and take them as sex slaves, destroy landmarks of historical significance, behead people like they were chickens etc. etc.
Go stop that before it becomes a shame in history, no? Showdown airstrikes and furious public speeches are not deceiving anyone. Europe and the US will have to shut the hell up about any past event when they are presently shitting all over the Middle East.
I wanted to ignore this, but seeing how it has already sparked up, I guess I should as well make a comment.
This is an issue that has to be researched heavily by reading more than a few books from both sides of the issue. But getting a fancy avatar and copypasting a wall of text from godknowswhere is more comfortable to do.
Back to the topic though. There certainly were killings and deportations, which could be justified or totally unjustifiable depending on what perspective you have (note that I am not suggesting either personally). It is clear that the killings also stemmed from the other side. There are accounts of that too.
Rather than talking about whether it happened or not, I would like to ask the question "Why is everyone so deeply interested?". There has been lots of violence and bloodshed in the Turkish history. Even in not-so-distant past, Alevites and Kurds suffered a great deal too. Just like the Armenian issue, these (in particular the Kurdish issue) has been brought to the table over and over again. I mean why the fuck on earth does some European or US parliament have to vote as to whether it took place or not? Why? Somebody tell me. I don't mean to say it is not an issue open to discussion, but why does someone have to furnish a long post about it? What is there to be had? I call this "an attempt to install a handle". Once the handle is installed, once the so-called guilt is acknowledged, what will happen next? I guess we know the answer very well.
This is the exact reason why all past governments have been denying everything that happened in the past. That is why an enormous fascist like Tardogan can still rise to power after all this time and use the words "Armenian, Alevite or Kurd" to actually "insult" people. That is why a great man of Armenian origin, Hrant Dink was murdered in a plot that was very well known to everyone who could humanely stop it. That is why the sheep of Tardogan still consider the very last few Armenian citizens we have as enemies. That is also why we are socially a lot more fragmented now than ever. Even if we could finally get a good and ideal government to take control (which is utopic still), they would be entirely reluctant to confess or admit anything to the world. Not in a world where the West is only interested in attaching a handle to Turkey, just like they did with the Kurdish issue.
I would like that to happen, you know. I'd like someone to step up and curse the shameful events aimed at minorities in the past (include Kurds and Alevites). If you talk to a citizen of Armenian origin with a rational mind, you will see that all they want is acknowledgement. And why not give that them? I am all for it. But they will also tell you the same things, that it is downright absurd for some other nation's parliament to vote for it, that it is only mealymouthed bullshit. They don't want blood for blood or some of our eastern lands to be given to them. What about the highly-concerned great civilizations of the West? What the fuck do they actually want? I have never seen colonial massacres or instigated internal massacres like the Hutu-Tutsi issue of Rwanda being voted in our parliament. Because, our "handle attaching capacities" are close to nought, right? Is that it?
Everyone has to understand that being an external monkey wrench in someone else's tires is not doing any good. It only deepens the problem. At this rate, I don't think there will ever be such acknowledgement, which is a shame.
Also, Berenger, your aptalturk rants are getting moronic. Get a grip, man.
If you had paid more attention, you would understand that I am not avoiding saying anything. Also if you had a better idea of how Turkey has been made the focus of territorial border shifting games for decades primarily through the Kurdish issue, you wouldn't dare call that stupid. Even 9 out of 10 Armeanians living in Turkey, at least in my own experience, will tell you more or less the same things. Because there are Armenians living in Armenia, Armenians still living in Turkey and then there are Armenian diasporas. All of them are different groups of people with more than slightly different mindsets about this issue.
Improvement of the Turkish image you say? That is not coming in any foreseeable future. Not with a tick persistently sucking the blood out of the country and, as I mentioned above, publicly calls people "Armenian" for an insult.
Actually, very few people care about this. Media coverage was piss poor. It has passed 100 years since it happened and we still don't know much about it. That is why people are interested.I don't know where you live but in France and Switzerland there's a lot of media coverage on armenian genocide, especially when Sarcozy was using it as a political tool.
I've linked source at the end of the post. It is taken from history.com
Don't feel bad, Turkey isn't the only country denying their past crimes. Japan does it too.
And about Japan, I think it is a little bit different. Japan did commit awfull crime and lots of killing in continental asia but the aim was never to wipe out the population. It was war crime, and result of lack of empathy for other asians.
resolved for at least another 100 years.
You mention Erdogan all the time, like he is at fault for everything. Let me remind you, Turkey has been denying Armenian genocide for 100 years, to the point where it is illegal to talk about it.
And in no-way a genocide recognition should be endorsed on another country, this is just counter-productive. It puts the accused country in a stance of defence that will only strengthen nationalism and in terms negationism.
Records show that during this “Turkification”campaign government squads also kidnapped children, converted them to Islam and gave them to Turkish families. In some places, they raped women and forced them to join Turkish “harems” or serve as slaves. Muslim families moved into the homes of deported Armenians and seized their property.
I just tried to read the OP for the first time and ;
Dude, what on earth are you talking about?
I mean, does that seem to make sense to you? I am trying to see it from your perspective , but considering that harem is a 17 18th century thing, and everyone in the Empire except the Sultan are considered as slaves , it seems pretty bullshit.
I have never denied the death marches , killing 7 armenians to get in Heaven, leaving the prisoners without food or water. Only a liar or a retard could deny it. But the term "genocide" is used when you just destroy them without a normal reason, only acting with hatred.But back then , Armenian militias were ambushing generals, rich people and were plundering villages for over 50 years ( this is the part which nobody sees ) , meaning tensions slowly risen between Turks and Armenians for a long time. Here is the quote from the only Armenian guy in cRPG who kept playing dtv " Seeing my grandmother crying like that was so sad " oh , how about turkish grannies? Are they sitting on their back and laughing and saying " suck it noobz" ? I think not.
If someone says to me "armenians were completely innocent and turks came murdered and raped" then proves it, i would be so grateful.
Dude wat
Do you even know what a genocide is?
Sigh
If I do/know something wrong , would you enlighten me then?
If all murders against an ethnicity called a genocide , it wouldn't be wrong to say that Armenians genocided on Turks as well. Oops nonono thats quite the opposite of how you guys want it.
I'm not saying we shouldn't recognize the genocide. It is good that everyone knows in the west that armenians were persecuted and killed as it is always good when people know how history happened. I think it is great that a lot of countries in Europe have recognized it but they did it for the wrong reasons (to keep turkey away) and that's to blame.
What I'm saying is that it is stupid to force the turkish governement to recognize the genocide as nothing good will come of this enforced recognition:
-The turks will feel humiliated for this imposed opinion and will react in the opposite direction.
-It will justify in their eyes the persecution of armenians. Because in their heads it will be like: "if armenians are so supported in the west, they must be pro-westerner as young-turks suspected it."
-If the governement recognize the genocide due to international pressure but stays internally entiled to its opinion. There will never be any debate inside Turkey, the turks will never grab the concept of genocide and will keep their opinion that there never was any genocide.
Is the fact of any of those events being denied at an official level? No? Welp, what a waste of a post.
Is the fact of any of those events being denied at an official level? No? Welp, what a waste of a post.
Well, at least it has the merit of putting things in perspective.
By the way France recognizes its many, many more recent errors concerning e.g. Algeria and the numerous nuclear tests there and in the Pacific.
Yeah, really puts the holocaust in perspective, when you look at those numbers. Truly we should tell Germany to stop self-flagellating about WW2 and einstein, it makes no sense that they care more about that than the millions of chinese deaths Mao was responsible for. /retard logic
By the way France recognizes its many, many more recent errors concerning e.g. Algeria and the numerous nuclear tests there and in the Pacific.When Sarcozy was in power and criticizing Turkey, France had recognize killings (also mass torture which was already a big thing I admit) just like Japan has recognized killings but not war crime.
and put genocide on our 600 years of brothers, Armenians
-Great value in historical truth
-Thread about denying genocide of armenians
-What's my point?
Do I really need to spell it out for you? Is the juxtaposition of the way Germany handles it's past history in an official capacity and the way Turkey does not enough? Again, you can be arrested for publically having an opinion on this historical event that does not concord with the official government one. And you want to pretend that we can't judge that as incredibly fucked up? What the fuck is wrong with you people?
It's like playing a game with an asshole child that constantly changes the rule so they fits him better. Not even talking about the hypocrisia, when everyone is blaming the other for minorities repression while doing the exact same in its country.
Well the west didn't even have a clue it was happening because it was so completely hidden and denied both at the time and for decades later by Mao's administration. If anything the west was presented with the impression that the Great Leap Forward was an astounding success.Still writing long posts, still completely missing the point.
Also the official figures even today are significantly lower (3-15 separate Armenia genocides apart in terms of figures) from what the most recent estimates are. Does that count?
But of course I forget, out of the non-Turks and non-Armenians here it's not about a noble quest for truth, it's the fact that this is currently trending (or that you're looking for something new to be angry about in Oberyn's case). I guess i'll just have to wait till the famine is trending, I suspect i'll have to wait a very long time.
Xant, I have to say, unambiguous communication is not your forte.Then what is? Is it his ability to surround URLs pointing to images with BB tags?
Still writing short posts and missing the point....
Then what is? Is it his ability to surround URLs pointing to images with BB tags?Yes, my super power.
Oh we have a tough guy here huh....... *unsheathes my twin katanas* Well, let's see how tough you really are! *jumps into the air* TAAAAKE THIIIIIIIIIIIIS *spins around and slashes your face open* Not so tough now, huh????? *grabs you and throws you up* It's time to finish this little charade *holds my katanas above my head* YOU ARE FINIIIIISHEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!! *jumps upwards so that you get impaled on my swords* Heh.... easy.....