cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => The Chamber of Tears => Topic started by: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 24, 2015, 07:20:28 am

Title: Agi the super skill
Post by: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 24, 2015, 07:20:28 am
So in the last 2 weeks i respeced about  10 times lost about 20 million of xp (maybe is even more than that) lost a couple of looms (more than that.Dont ask why) . And all of that to just figure out agi dmg vs str dmg.

So what i have realized is that agi is really the super skill.

1)With Agi you can hit harder.Yes you can espicially vs  low armor.  really doesnt make any sense .why someone that has 6 ps and 9 athl 9 wm will do more dmg from someone that has 13 ps vs 20 armor?

2)With Agi you can run faster.No athletics just Agi. I tried to create a build with 0 athletics and 30 agi.well i was running like i was having 7 athl! No sense at all the game is forcing me to run. i dint want to run that much i just wanted the wp. Well with agi you run more.

3)With Agi you gain more wp. Yes the more agi the more wp.No sense at all. So now you get wp bonus while you dont even have wm.So the more agi the better if you are goin for a hybrid build

4)Wth Agi you can ride the best horse.So now you run faster but not only that you ride faster. No sense at all. Not just ride faster but to have the best armored horse in the battlefield

5)With Agi you can have the best shield.Your shield breaking depends from how high your shield skill is which requires agi!! Sounds crazy ?well it is. The more agi you got the more difficult is for someone to break  your shield.

So with Agi you run faster ,(run faster=more dmg.Why ?well this is something called speed bonus).you have more wp which means that you can be proficient with more weapons you can ride the best armored horses and you can have the best shield that cant break because of your shield skill . You are a little God running or riding in the battlefield. The only bad thing about Agi is that it dosent give you health . Well thats what str is for.

So lets talk about Str.
1)With str you can have more health.how much? One point per level .so if an agi build has 18 str and a str build has 36 the difference is 18 health points . 18 health points is one hit from an agi build. An agi build can get easier that one hit (we can all understand why.).So the 18 points of health difference is not that much.is just one hit.

2)With Str you can have more health .Well the only real benefit of having a high Str build. Ironflesh!With Ironflesh you have more health as everybody that isnt a peasant knows. Which is huge. Well kind of huge .Because it dosent really matter if you are getting ganged .With an agi build you have a chance to escape because you can run away. With an Str build you just cant. You have to stand your ground and fight. So to be able to absorb 3 hits more becomes useless.Dont get me wrong Ironflesh is huge for a pure str build.Well is the only thing that really matters. Archers cant touch you. you just laugh at them. You cant hunt them. But you can scare them off.

So now lets talk what is happening if you dont have agility.
1)With no agi you have some problems. You get dmg penalty. Crazy?yes! you need agi so you wont get dmg penalty. anything  less from 100 wp you get dmg penalty.so an agi build can really do more damage now because it has more wp and a speed bonus. The str build has nothing of that.

2)With no agi its also harder to stop. eh...what? yes. because you cant run you cant stop.eh...what??Yes!you cant stop.You may think that the faster  you run the more difficult it would be to stop.Well thats not the case in Crpg. The faster you run the better you stop. If you dont run you cant stop.Crazy ? well it is.


So Agi is really the super skill.But after all those respecs i felt bad for having a high agi build with a katana. The peasants(newbies) had no chance at all. i could spam anyone to death hunt down archers and backstab the enemies like i am a ghost. 18/30 was my build. But as i said i felt bad. I guy start calling me names of how bad i was because i spam him to death.  The newbies tried to run away had no chance at all.They really dint even have a chance to block my swings (210 wp on 2h with katana insane). So i just kept this build for a 2 days or so. i felt guilt in my gut. What have i become?

So i respeced to a pure str build. Now people just ask me how much Ironeflesh i got. They cant really qq on me because the can outspam me (well they cant they just think they can) and they can gang me with ease. I can live with that. Its ok . I am just a walking tincan on the battlefield . I offer free hits.

Love and kisses to all

sorry for my English. I hope you can understand me
Ps:If they ever bring B back i will start repsecing again every 2 hours,something is wrong with me no joke

Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on March 24, 2015, 07:56:53 am
Agi always op
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Kalp on March 24, 2015, 08:17:03 am
Tydeus is a man to blame.

Quote from: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 24, 2015, 07:20:28 am
Because it dosent really matter if you are getting ganged .With an agi build you have a chance to escape because you can run away. With an Str build you just cant. You have to stand your ground and fight.

This is where we hold them, this is where we fight, this is where they die !!! So I will stand and fight for fuck's sake  :!:
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Torben on March 24, 2015, 10:59:08 am
dude stop loosing xp!  use the free respecc for godssake!
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 24, 2015, 12:20:45 pm
Quote from: Torben on March 24, 2015, 10:59:08 am
dude stop loosing xp!  use the free respecc for godssake!


Even the free respec cant save me. I use the free respec then after 1 day i respec again.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Algarn on March 24, 2015, 12:21:54 pm
STFs.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on March 24, 2015, 12:36:45 pm
You felt bad for being so overpowered and went back to your old build. That is what sets players like you apart from abuse addicts, whores that can't enjoy shit without exploiting every little opportunity they get. Wish more people tried adding only a tiny pinch of dignity in their shit soup.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: AwesomeHail on March 24, 2015, 01:03:12 pm
why dont you use a stf.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 24, 2015, 01:23:18 pm
Quote from: skeletzo on March 24, 2015, 01:03:12 pm
why dont you use a stf.

I hate stf's
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Panos_ on March 24, 2015, 03:24:36 pm
Welcome to the club, I ve been arguing for more than a year that AGI is OP compared to STR, because of the retarded speed bonus damage that the high agility builds receive.

Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Leshma on March 24, 2015, 04:25:06 pm
Only way to deal with it is to revert levels back to old systems or this time, for real, raise the weapon reqs. Not by point or two, but by 6 or 9. It will kill agi builds but I won't be the one to mourn.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: gallonigher on March 24, 2015, 05:47:36 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 24, 2015, 04:25:06 pm
Only way to deal with it is to revert levels back to old systems or this time, for real, raise the weapon reqs. Not by point or two, but by 6 or 9. It will kill agi builds but I won't be the one to mourn.

Sounds nice but I doubt it'll happen since the mod is on its way out.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 24, 2015, 08:36:32 pm
So are you comparing a 18/30 build to a max strength build? Or are you comparing 18/30 to 30/18?

Also why dont you use a STF?
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 25, 2015, 05:43:26 am
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on March 24, 2015, 08:36:32 pm
So are you comparing a 18/30 build to a max strength build? Or are you comparing 18/30 to 30/18?

Also why dont you use a STF?

i compare nothing just stating my experience
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2015, 05:38:07 pm
Quote from: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 25, 2015, 05:43:26 am
i compare nothing just stating my experience

but your OP is implying that agi is stronger than STR, shouldnt you need to do comparisons to say that? ah nvm its in Chamber of Tears, i guess its not needed.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: StonedSteel on March 25, 2015, 06:59:38 pm
"Welcome to the club, I ve been arguing for more than a year that AGI is OP compared to STR, because of the retarded speed bonus damage that the high agility builds receive."

easy to agree with, as it is true, but theres really no point in posting these things anymore.

guy spends time and does an in depth comparison, but will these points be discussed by the community? nope, another "game is currently bad, needs changes" swept under the rug...BOOM, chamber of tears.

m0d is dead, it could have gone on for a lot longer. shame how it all turned out, lot of people seem to blame tydeus...but at the end of the day you have chadz allowing these changes to happen, and folks like gravoth defending these changes, as well as admins and moderators who do their best to remove any and all valid criticisms of crpg from general discussion.

i see alot of crpg players coming over to native, and i laugh...if game was so old, why do they still play native? they arnt coming to native because they are bored with crpg, they come because crpg is garbage right now.

but hey, im just an angry mindless autist...all i can do, is speak the truth, and collect the downvotes from delusional crpg fucks.

this mod and its community, could have gone on for a LOT longer. but its over, and it deserves to be over, you lads got what was coming to you.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2015, 07:25:20 pm
Quote from: StonedSteel on March 25, 2015, 06:59:38 pm
(click to show/hide)

"valid criticisms" while being valid, they are usually QQ based. Like most of yours, ive had to get 5 posts out of you before you actually stated what you thought was broken with agi (only saying that its OP doesnt really say much) and even then it wasnt the attribute being too strong, but you said that it makes the game lag from too high movement speed.

A lot of the criticisms are also biased and just generally hating. Sometimes based from people that arent even agi builds, just made because they lost to someone with better footwork. And look at Raz's now, he didnt even make proper comparisons, but only made theories, and then went from a decent agi build to a fullout str whore build with katana (not viable in most peoples books).

Most agi QQ seems to come from people who arent that experienced with the mod, while the general veteran players opinion is that balance is strongest, with a couple preffering to have a bit more str or a bit more agi. The reason inexperienced players dislikes agi more is probably because proper footwork and agility stands out more than the pros of strength. And because it shines in duels, and allows for a cheap backstabby style, while str is puts more effort into positioning but allows more risks, and a more consistent outcome.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 09:04:12 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2015, 07:25:20 pm
The reason inexperienced players dislikes agi more is probably because proper footwork and agility stands out more than the pros of strength.

Proper footwork exist just in native module, just like proper dueling.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2015, 09:40:14 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 09:04:12 pm
Proper footwork exist just in native module, just like proper dueling.

Kek, shows how much you actually know about this mod.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 26, 2015, 09:49:22 am
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2015, 07:25:20 pm

A lot of the criticisms are also biased and just generally hating. Sometimes based from people that arent even agi builds, just made because they lost to someone with better footwork. And look at Raz's now, he didnt even make proper comparisons, but only made theories, and then went from a decent agi build to a fullout str whore build with katana (not viable in most peoples books).


I think i stated 5 facts about agi being better than str. Do you disagree with that?

Footwork has nothing to do with Agi. This is a myth.  Only if you backpedal and stab (GTX playstyle) . Then yes if you call the ''s'' key footwork then i have to agree.

So do you believe is fair that agi does more dmg? Do you think is fair that you can run faster ride the best horses have the best shield have more wp more dmg output .So make a proper comparison.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Paul on March 26, 2015, 12:51:05 pm
Some time ago ranged speed bonus was changed from the (imo realistic) kinetic energy based squared speed-damage relation(doubled speed, quadrupled damage) to a linear momentum-oriented way(doubled speed, doubled damage). Tydeus. Dunno how it is for melee at the moment. Different to ranged one could argue for melee that without the strength to grip the weapon tight during the impact, speed shouldn't help for extra damage. So the bad idea of the day could be: str based(among other parameters) upper limits for raw damage.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 26, 2015, 06:47:27 pm
Quote from: Ras_FrenzYYY on March 26, 2015, 09:49:22 am
I think i stated 5 facts about agi being better than str. Do you disagree with that?

Footwork has nothing to do with Agi. This is a myth.  Only if you backpedal and stab (GTX playstyle) . Then yes if you call the ''s'' key footwork then i have to agree.

So do you believe is fair that agi does more dmg? Do you think is fair that you can run faster ride the best horses have the best shield have more wp more dmg output .So make a proper comparison.

Footwork is literally movement, and s-key is a movement. Using it to your advantage would be using proper footwork. Footwork does have much to do with agility, since agility not only makes it easier but also giving it more potential. I really dont see the hate on S-key, its the very core footwork to do in this game.

So what is footwork in your book if not s-key? w only? but agility does have things to do with w... hmm..

I saw the so called facts, but im not sure if they can be called facts since you havent made proper comparisons, you could be pulling shit out of your ass. Allthough i do agree on some points, but i cant say for sure if an agi based build would out damage a strenght based one, out of personal experience i feel like strength has the most consistent damage, while agility has more potential, but the difference in highest damage hits is pretty much the same. But then, you are comparing a 18-24 build to a 39-3 build or whatever strength whore build you have.

Your second point in having 30 agi 0 athl gives the same movespeed as 7 athl, bullshit, i did a 13-45 something attributes only build, i was slower than most people in heavy armor and i was in light.

Third point, yes you do get more wp, but with a balance build you have plenty and wont have to go for more agility, hell you can even hybrid at 18 agi. Sure, it becomes harder at lower agility, but thats also when things get less viable, and hybriding would make it even more poop.

Fourth, afaik most cav just goes for minimum req for the heavy horses (maybe this is old cav builds im not sure), you can get some more i guess basing your build on agility but i really cant see how much it would be worth. Builds are still centered around balanced attributes here, so to me they are still both worth it.

As for shields, its also just meet lowest requirement or sit around 4 or 5 points in it, thats 15 agi, which makes it viable to most strwhores, staying around balanced attributes still the best.


As for the 2 points on health, if you can manage to do decent footwork and positioning with low movespeed then you can get heavy armor and tank 3 or 4 times the amount an agi build could, id say thats pretty decent, all things considered. You wont have to run unless youve managed to put yourself into that position, which could be prevented (most of the time, unless the team is complete ass).


Damage penalty not having agi? i think at below 12 agi you start losing out on potential, or maybe it was 9, cant remember, but the same happens with having less than 12 str, you lose out on damage. Hell i think you star losing out on it when below 18 str.

Also i see heskey contributing plenty as usual, the person ive actually never even see play this game, but hell this forum is a game of its own.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 26, 2015, 07:20:25 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 26, 2015, 06:56:55 pm
A fine game indeed. If you saw me in-server I think you might still dispute whether or not you'd seen me actually playing the game.

And I was contributing in a sense since I am well acquainted with your stance on the matter (your own post above confirms that my post was not wrong, just lacking in detail).

I could have specified that you believe S-key is footwork based on your response to the GTX/Xesta duel thread where someone commented that the duel would likely be an S-key feint spam fest and that you said it would be because they are good players.

Regarding agility and damage you have previously stated that Str gives more consistent damage but agility gives the opportunity for both higher and lower damage depending on movement, and that you feel this is the correct dynamic.

You have previously in general concluded that Str-whores rule the server still (from your personal experience) and that the current balance is pretty good if a little pro-str.

I may not agree with you but at least I pay attention (and at least you're consistent!). So I don't feel it was overly harmful to state that you are absolutely fine with the various points Ras raised as potential balance issues, and that you consider them fine and well balanced.

While you did indeed answear correctly on my opinions, its still unecessary since if you know me this well i will veery much make a response of my own telling my opinions in more detail. It just seems douchey and repetative to make posts like that as if you have something against me personally, im not sure if you really do though, all my posts are in good fun and passion anyways allthough some may take offense to different opinions.
Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Shemaforash on March 27, 2015, 02:39:41 pm
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Title: Re: Agi the super skill
Post by: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on April 12, 2015, 07:55:46 pm
Quote from: Shemaforash on March 27, 2015, 02:39:41 pm
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Be quiet and go troll the archers.