cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Michael on May 24, 2011, 12:16:02 pm
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About horse charge
When I had my heavy plated charger I had worked for five months or something and got a few kills with charging footmen, every second round some idiot started a poll to ban me.
These days, every idiot can use the unarmored courser and ride down a group of well trained shielders.
Come on, this is so ridiculous.
Reduce the horse charge of unarmored horses to a bit more realistic level.
When (and if) you could get a weak fast horse like the courser to run into a guy in armor standing behind a shield the horse would probably take more damage than the shielder.
Coursers were Arabian horses that were trained to be fast, not to be strong.
In game, the courser is the horse that causes more charge damage than the heavy plated charger.
Not to talk about the assists.
The courser bumping down 7 enemies, and someone else slashing them before they can get up again.
Only chargers should be able to ride down footmen.
Here is my suggestion:
Sumpter, Rouncey, Palfrey:
horse charge: 8
Courser, Arabian Warhorse, Desert Horse:
horse charge: 5
Destrier, Cata, Mameluk:
horse charge: 10
Charger:
horse charge: 40
Plated Charger
horse charge: 50
Something like that.
This, and my suggestion to make all lances couchable-only like you already did with the great lance,
and we wouldnt have to play all those silly box maps because cavalry is so overpowered that everyone is hiding in towers or on hills .
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About horse charge
When (and if) you could get a weak fast horse like the courser to run into a guy in armor standing behind a shield the horse would probably take more damage than the shielder.
Um...
Horses have a lot of mass behind them, plus they are mostly muscle and bone. The force they would plow into you at would actually be terrifying, the faster the horse, the more deadly. A heavier, slower horse does not become more deadly then a lighter but faster one.
F=m*a
(Force = Mass * Speed)
It all balances out really.
When something with that much mass wallops into a shield, what happens is the energy transfers into the body of the shield user, which then makes the shield user fall on his arse and get trampled with very little trouble to the horse. A sheild, if anything, would make it -easier- to hurt you charging you since theres more area to transfer force from.
A shield doesn't make you a brick wall, you're still just a fleshy little meatbag balancing on two legs. Just happen to be carrying a big metal plate.
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I think horse charge got nerfed then buffed again iirc.
Of course, speed bonus affects it so a courser at full speed (or maybe a champion courser at full speed) probably does as much charge damage as some of the armoured horses at full speed.
Though, a plated charger will usually knockdown at even medium speeds.
Reducing desert and arabian warhorse charge to 5 will do very little in terms of damage - they don't go fast enough for their 16 and 20 charge (respectively) to do damage to anyone except very lightly armoured players. Of course, it would mean that they'd come to a complete stop whenever they hit anything. So you'd make them useless for everyone but lance cav, and heavily nerfed even for them.
I think charge got buffed again because cav players were tired of their horses rearing when hitting a peasant, or bouncing off of tin cans.
Maybe you could reduce courser charge by 2 points, maybe even 4. But the rest of your stat suggestions are crazy.
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As primarly an armored cav player myself I would disagree with post.
Courser uses its speed to inflict hits, armored horses use their mass. LIke other poster said, you dont have to be going as fast on an armored horse to get knockdowns.
Its fine the way it is now, the light horses barely do any knockdowns dmg anyhow.
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Huscarls weight is 10 -what is ridiculous when you compare it with the 2 of greatswords and huge polearm spam weapons-
so even naked the shielder has a huge disadvantage against said backpedaling 2h/poleswingspammer.
So what is the role then charge archers and get backstabbed by cavalry?
If so, then you cant wear armor because cos of the shields weight archers can outrun the shielder easily even when shielder is naked.
2h/polearm can wear heavy armor and be fast at the same time.
They dont need much strength, they can put all their skill points in power strike and athletics and convert the rest so they can wear heavy armor.
Also, 2h/polespammers, when they have some awareness, they can jumpslash or 1stab the horse, so its risky for the horsemen and they go after easier targets.
Ranged have their defense chance cos of their weapon, 2 arrows or 1 bolt is enough to kill an unarmored horse.
However, shielders have no chance.
I really dont see why some superfast or supermaneuver horses need to be able to knockdown enemies anyway.
Knockdown is bullshit.
Those unarmored horses simply should not be able to knockdown anyone.
I know you dont know much about history so either believe me or get some info: horses like courser or sarranid were never ever used to knockdown enemies.
Coursers were used by horse archers to stay out of reach of enemy melee heavy cav.
Sarranid horses didnt even exist.
War elephants were the only class in ancient and medieval battlefields that were used to knock down enemies.
Chargers were used to ride into a group of enemies and "bumpslash" with morningstar.
Lance is so easymode anyway when they ride into a group of enemies due to their lack of awareness they shouldnt be able to escape.
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I know you dont know much about history so either believe me or get some info: horses like courser or sarranid were never ever used to knockdown enemies.
You may know about history, but seem to be having trouble grasping the law of psychics...
Of course, if when you have dried your eyes, you would like to continue this conversation in a civil manner without rage-typing your tears away I'm sure we can accommodate.
/thread
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I agree with OP. Horse charge should be decreased. This would also solve some of the issues with bumpslashing. Hyena I think you used the wrong formula there. I think you are talking about inertia. P =m*v mass times speed. F = m*a yes, but thats mass time acceleration, which proves that horses must have powerful legs to accelerate as fast as they do in M&B even though they probably weigh like 300kg or so. However, your argument is completely correct. When something with a large mass comes at something in high speed, it has a lot of inertia (and also a lot of kinetic energy (Ek = 0.5*m*v^2)), which means the poor infantry will get a lot of inertia and kinetic energy transferred to him. Unfortunately for the little guy, there will not be a perfect elastic collision (in which case all the inertia and Ek transferred to him would be in the form of his speed increasing, most likely backwards) no, there will be a partly inelastic collision which means some of the inertia and Ek will be tranferred to knocking the man down, while some will go into his body and break his bones and such.
So, if a horse charges into a man, the man will (in reality) be damaged quite a lot. However, horses dont like to run into people, because it hurts for them too. They get the same amount of "internal damage" as the one they hit, though as mentioned the horse has lots of bones and muscle, but still not so chill for the horse. Only way to get horses to charge into people is to have a pack of horses get afraid. Or train them to do so, like the heavy armored horses have. (but not the light arabian horses) (and the armored horses have armor on them, its better to damage the armor than to damage the horse)
However, I agree with the OP for balancing reasons. Bumping with a horse is a cheap way to fight, and as light cavalry you're not supposed to charge into packs of enemies with your horse. Thats the heavy cavaly's job.
When something with that much mass wallops into a shield, what happens is the energy transfers into the body of the shield user, which then makes the shield user fall on his arse and get trampled with very little trouble to the horse. A sheild, if anything, would make it -easier- to hurt you charging you since theres more area to transfer force from.
Just a comment on this one too: If you hold a shield up and try to stop the horse with it, you will most likely break the arm. But if you hold the shield just infront of your body, and only holding it up with the arm, it will defend you from the collision since the shield takes up a lot of the kinetic energy. (the shape of the shield is also helpful here) The size of the shield does not increase the force on the man, (you might be thinking about drag force or something) however, the size of the shield helps the horse from glancing off you if it doesnt hit you perfectly straight. If the horse just glanced you, you wouldnt be so damaged since the horse doesnt lose so much speed. (less Ek transferred) But with the shield you are almost guarranteed that the horse will get a proper inpact and blast you to smithereens.
EDIT: I just noticed the OP said something about not letting lances attack without couching. Thats bs, couching lances are boring. What is fun with being a lance cav is the difficulty with hitting with the stab attack. Couching is also the easy way of killing non pike infantry, not the hard way. (even though coucing takes more time to charge up to) If lances was couch only, we'd see a lot more cavalry with spears and such, or just have none lancing cavalry left. (except for the sissies who prefer easymode, no aim required, no timing required one hit k.o couching) (not to bash on people who use to couch, it requires more strategic sense, and I respect that)
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Coursers were Arabian horses that were trained to be fast, not to be strong.
Sarranid horses didnt even exist.
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So basically if you train these nonexistant Arabian Horses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_horse),
They became this ?visitors can't see pics , please register or login
New evolution theory is on the way i guess ?
People started to add armour on horses cuz of development on ranged weapons such as longbows and crossbows which pierce deeply and kill horses with their fierce volley shots.Aim of the heavy cavalary wasn't killing infantry by bumping them, it was for protection .
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Those are pretty little fine boned animals whose legs would break when hitting a fully plated shielder. Yes, the shielder would be talking to God, but that horse would go down and never get up as well :o
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Those are pretty little fine boned animals whose legs would break when hitting a fully plated shielder. Yes, the shielder would be talking to God, but that horse would go down and never get up as well :o
Lol you realize a horse leg is about 5x thicker than your leg bone right? And they arent hitting you with legs, they're hitting you with CHEST and knocking you out of the way. Just like hitting deer with a truck. Human vs Horse = human roadkill
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I love the misuse of physics.
some people forget Newton's 3rd law - the force applies both ways, which means that the collision will not be very pleasant to the horse either. On top of that, a horse it not a point mass colliding with another points mass. It has two long things protruding in front, called legs. If these legs get caught in anything, the horse will fall on his face. Nicking a human out of the way is fine, running over a human with equipment is likely to make the horse loose its footing or get something tangled with the legs. Horses are scared of stepping on things - they do not like walking on rocks and a few metal tubes laid on the ground is enough to act as a road block for them. In M&B of course all ground is high quality tarmac on which the horse can run at full speed.
Game mechanics:
the horse can plow through a group of players as long as it has speed. This is affected both by its speed stat (assuming it is comming at max speed) and charge value. For some of the horses the low charge is compensated by the high speed - the damage may not be as high as a charger, but it can plow through the group just the same. Reduced speed even without modification to the charge value will reduce this ability as well.
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Lol you realize a horse leg is about 5x thicker than your leg bone right? And they arent hitting you with legs, they're hitting you with CHEST and knocking you out of the way. Just like hitting deer with a truck. Human vs Horse = human roadkill
Have you ever seen a car after it hits a deer? The car is totalled. Oh, and TRY running a horse into something without its legs being hit. They aren't retractable and the horses chest doesn't stick out 5 feet in front of it. LOL yourself :rolleyes:
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Have you ever seen a car after it hits a deer? The car is totalled. Oh, and TRY running a horse into something without its legs being hit. They aren't retractable and the horses chest doesn't stick out 5 feet in front of it. LOL yourself :rolleyes:
you're picture isnt all that helpful and isnt anything close to resembling how a horse hits a human and the heights involved. Plus thats minor dmg on weak points on the car. Lets see what a humvee (higher clearance) does to a deer, a busted radiator and could still drive home.
A horse charging a human is more akin to one of those punching balloons. The horses center of gravity hits you above yours and knocks you down like a house of cards.
I guess you're not understanding that a horse's chest hits you in your chest and knocks you out of the way (off the side out of the path of the horse) or straight down. The horses legs being wider than a human body thus avoiding having to step on your body. Plus unless the horse is walking, his leg span due to the speed of the charge they will easily be able to clear anything that was under them at the time of the charge.
Are you not understand that horses were used to CHARGE and trample people in warfare all thorough history? There is even a breed of horse called CHARGER.
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You're delusional. Barbaro broke his leg at the frickin Preakness. In other words, just RUNNING. That doesn't even factor in running into a 300 lb mass of steel armored human braced against it. You're living in some fantasy Hollywood movie if you think that said horse will simply just spread his legs and avoid hitting the guy after, oh wait, HITTING the guy.
A CHARGER is fully armored, ie protected. We are talking about UNARMORED horses, which WILL be unridable after you try trampling an armored knight, whether the knight survives or not it irrelevant. The horse itself is done.
Learn2Physics :rolleyes:
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You're delusional. Barbaro broke his leg at the frickin Preakness. In other words, just RUNNING. That doesn't even factor in running into a 300 lb mass of steel armored human braced against it. You're living in some fantasy Hollywood movie if you think that said horse will simply just spread his legs and avoid hitting the guy after, oh wait, HITTING the guy.
A CHARGER is fully armored, ie protected. We are talking about UNARMORED horses, which WILL be unridable after you try trampling an armored knight, whether the knight survives or not it irrelevant. The horse itself is done.
Learn2Physics :rolleyes:
Well said. Broken legs are always a real concern for horses. Ask someone who has taken care of horses. Its easy for it to happen, and often times the horse will never walk again afterwords.
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You're delusional. Barbaro broke his leg at the frickin Preakness. In other words, just RUNNING. That doesn't even factor in running into a 300 lb mass of steel armored human braced against it. You're living in some fantasy Hollywood movie if you think that said horse will simply just spread his legs and avoid hitting the guy after, oh wait, HITTING the guy.
A CHARGER is fully armored, ie protected. We are talking about UNARMORED horses, which WILL be unridable after you try trampling an armored knight, whether the knight survives or not it irrelevant. The horse itself is done.
Learn2Physics :rolleyes:
Ya comparing some prissy 1k lb. RACING horse (running as fast as possible) to a CHARGER WARHORSE makes ALOT of sense, only about a 500-1k lb difference between the two. Like comparing the bones of a 12yr old vs a UFC heavyweight.
You realize what a cavalry charge in ancient/medieval times was? They RODE DIRECTLY INTO INFANTRY LINES AND CRUSHED THEM WITH SPEED & MASS, while unarmored. Armored horses werent all that common in history.
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You realize what a cavalry charge in ancient/medieval times was? They RODE DIRECTLY INTO INFANTRY LINES AND CRUSHED THEM WITH SPEED & MASS, while unarmored. Armored horses werent all that common in history.
That should close this topic.
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Ya comparing some prissy 1k lb. RACING horse (running as fast as possible) to a CHARGER WARHORSE makes ALOT of sense, only about a 500-1k lb difference between the two. Like comparing the bones of a 12yr old vs a UFC heavyweight.
You realize what a cavalry charge in ancient/medieval times was? They RODE DIRECTLY INTO INFANTRY LINES AND CRUSHED THEM WITH SPEED & MASS, while unarmored. Armored horses werent all that common in history.
did your "high wisdom modifier" conclude that none of those horses got crippled during the process? :rolleyes:
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You realize what a cavalry charge in ancient/medieval times was? They RODE DIRECTLY INTO INFANTRY LINES AND CRUSHED THEM WITH SPEED & MASS, while unarmored. Armored horses werent all that common in history.
You realize that you are completely wrong? They were not normally used as bowling balls against pins.
Light (unarmored) cavalry in particular were used against the flaks, opposing cavalry and soft units such archers and skirmishers. In Greek and Roman times the cavalry were positioned at the flaks of the infantry formation to protect them from enemy flakers or be ready to go out flaking.
Even medieval heavy cavalry rarely charged into formations - their greatest disasters happened when they tried that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Golden_Spurs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_charge#Cavalry_charges
Here from Machiavelli:
http://www.online-literature.com/view.php/art-of-war-machiavelli/2
Nor should anyone wonder that a Knot (group) of infantry sustains every attack of the cavalry, for the horse is a sensible animal and knows the dangers, and goes in unwillingly. And if you would think about what forces make him (the horse) go forward and what keep him back, without doubt you will see that those which hold him back are greater than those which push him; for spurs make him go forward, and, on the other hand, the sword and the pike retain him. So that from both ancient and modem experiences, it has been seen that a small group of infantry can be very secure from, and even actually insuperable to, the cavalry. And if you should argue on this that the Elan with which he comes makes it more furious in hurling himself against whoever wants to sustain his attack, and he responds less to the pike than the spur, I say that, as soon as the horse so disposed begins to see himself at the point of being struck by the points of the pikes, either he will by himself check his gait, so that he will stop as soon as he sees himself about to be pricked by them, or, being pricked by them, he will turn to the right or left. If you want to make a test of this, try to run a horse against a wall, and rarely will you find one that will run into it, no matter with what Elan you attempt it. Caesar, when he had to combat the Swiss in Gaul, dismounted and made everyone dismount to their feet, and had the horses removed from the ranks, as they were more adept at fleeing than fighting.
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I dont understand why an unarmoured destrier would do more damage than a warhorse...
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I think we can conclude that:
1) The unarmoured horses should take damage AS WELL as the footman (the footman should take more damage than the horse)
2) If the footman uses as shield - the shield should absorb some of the impact and reduce damage slightly.
3) The charger - should not take damage due to knocking down a footman.
Comment:
If you think about laws of physics - if you run a courier into a group of footmen - the rider would be catapulted of the saddle :)
And most likely the horse would stop by it self - even before hitting.
Only a trained horse would charge a group of footmen - trained - and armoured (No living creature will want to get hurt - unless very strictly trained - or not at all)
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It is only realistic that a horse knockdowns a much smaller creature such as the human.
To those who say knockdown is a cheap way to fight - sure, it is - but it's not hard to avoid getting hit if you are just aware of your surroundings which is not that hard.
Every attempt to bump someone means risking your horse and your life.
Did I mention the down block? It always works, no matter if the thrusting lance aims for your feet or your head. How cheap isn't that?
Also, if you kill a horse running straight at you just 1cm before it is about to hit you, you don't get hit at all...
"Only a trained horse would charge a group of footmen - trained - and armoured (No living creature will want to get hurt - unless very strictly trained - or not at all)"
Good point. I agree. But how would you train it to obey? You can't pick the riding skill obviously but if the CHA and INT attributes would be available you could use one of those for it maybe...
I actually made a post about the free will of horses recently :)
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,6617.msg104279.html#msg104279