cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on March 08, 2015, 12:19:47 am

Title: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Leshma on March 08, 2015, 12:19:47 am
I know what you are thinking. Here comes Leshma with his typical nerf archery topic :)

Well, not quite. Here's what is the deal this time. Since I've been playing this mod (October 2010), I've never witnessed situation we have now. Right now we have all three ranged classes being very strong. That was never the case. It was two decent, one shit. That obviously creates some issues for dedicated melee players. It is true that many ranged players started playing again (mainly archers) but something has to be done to lessen the number of projectiles in the air.

Pick the ranged class you want to nerf. If it was up to me I would go with throwing. Throwing is like a carpet bombing, inaccurate but deals a lot of damage (everywhere). It is also favorite troll class and you know what I think of trolls.

If you nerf xbow you'll make mistake because they are still few around and we melee players won't feel it. Besides, xbow is at sweet spot currently.

If you nerf archery you'll again aggravate a lot of players and even I don't like them, they are better than throwers in my book. Archers were a formidable force on medieval battlefield. They should have that role in cRPG.

cRPG was the best when throwing was underpowered. Dunno who and why decided to make it (too) viable, but it was grave mistake. It is way too easy to hybrid with throwing and even pure throwers can perform very well. That leads to a lot of projectiles on both competitive servers.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 08, 2015, 01:07:30 am
Wait, which one was shit in 2010? Triple oneshot-kill sniper crossbows, oneshot jarids or machinegun plate archers?

Anyways i think ranged as it is now is pretty good, throwing is about as strong as i would prefer it to be. Allthough annoying, i dont think its overpowered.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: HappyPhantom on March 08, 2015, 02:44:30 am
Right now we have all three ranged classes being very strong. That was never the case.

Archery damage is actually the lowest it's ever been I think. When B mode was enabled the max damage I could get with a 7PD archer w bodkins was 30. Most times it was 10-20. Pathetic.

Throwing on the other hand, that damage seems way OP, but I never play the class, so no damage data to back it up.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Mr.K. on March 08, 2015, 09:11:20 am
Archery damage is actually the lowest it's ever been I think. When B mode was enabled the max damage I could get with a 7PD archer w bodkins was 30. Most times it was 10-20. Pathetic.

Try with 9 or 10 PD and it deals insane damage. 30 is pretty much half HP of most melee builds - how much damn damage do you think archers are supposed to make?

Not sure about throwing atm. Daggers seem to do a lot of damage even against plate and those throwing lances seem deadly, but whenever I tried my pure jarid thrower build I did so badly with it I just gave up and respecced. The aiming has always been a bit strange so maybe I was just out of practice. Throwers can still kite unlike other ranged classes (well xbow can, but they won't be able to shoot) and also it's the easiest to hybrid. To balance that it should be weaker than the other two imo.

For too long the idea behind the balancing has been too much trying to make everything strong in most situations and the rock-paper-scissors balancing that required more teamwork was forgotten. Throwers for me should be an anti cavalry class like it once was. Also horse throwers should be more viable anti cavalry unit than they are now.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Molly on March 08, 2015, 07:14:02 pm
Throwing easy to hybrid? what the...

Yea, let's overlook that crossbow doesn't need to spend skillpoints on anything to become a sniper. Contrary to throwers who need the same skillpoints like archers. Granted, throwers get to invest more points into melee wpf cuz you don't need as much in throwing as in archery but hey... we have like half the ammunition (and less than that).

But this would mean... wait... yea, it does... I do not agree with Leshma!  :shock:

Shocking, I know...
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Mr.K. on March 09, 2015, 03:07:36 pm
Throwing easy to hybrid? what the...

Yea, let's overlook that crossbow doesn't need to spend skillpoints on anything to become a sniper. Contrary to throwers who need the same skillpoints like archers. Granted, throwers get to invest more points into melee wpf cuz you don't need as much in throwing as in archery but hey... we have like half the ammunition (and less than that).

Crossbow highly limits the playstyle of the build if you actually want to shoot and fight and not just one of them. Throwers can switch from ranged to melee in less than a second and while it is true that they need 6-7 extra points in PT, the amount of wpf they have for melee is more than enough to be almost as effective in melee as a pure build. Also weight is much less of an issue for throwers than it is to other ranged classes.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Molly on March 09, 2015, 04:14:36 pm
umm... wut?  :rolleyes:
With the reworked xbow slots right now, you can have a normal xbow and any 2 slot weapon you like.
You're even more effective with a xbow in melee since you can have more IF, wear heavier armor.
Switching times between melee and ranged is the same for both.
Weight is no issue since dropping stuff is instantly.

Summary: xbow has way more advantages than thrower.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on April 27, 2015, 02:53:44 pm
Nope.

Those crossbows will do similar damage to jarid level throwing but without the movement. Swap between throwing and melee and if the enemy backs away you can swap back and throw, can't do that with crossbows since you have to reload. Also need to consider that throwing has ammo everywhere that can be immediately utilized due to the popularity of throwers. It also has less risk up close because you can just throw again if you miss, you miss a shotgun with a crossbow you have to wait for a while, plus there's a good chance the bolt you fired is gone whereas the thrower will just pick up his jarid or whatever cos it won't go as far.

In addition dropping a crossbow isn't as effective as the lower throw weight since you can't always get back to use it later so weight plays a bigger impact that you're inferring here.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Leshma on April 27, 2015, 03:20:09 pm
Still supporting throwing nerf, playing pure thrower atm. It is all about trolling people, forcing them to follow you while tossing stuff at them. When you run out of ammo, run around like a chicken in search for more. It is enjoyable in same sadistic way like kiting archery is, but it feels wrong imho. Dedicated class for trolls, nothing more.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 27, 2015, 03:43:05 pm
Still supporting throwing nerf, playing pure thrower atm. It is all about trolling people, forcing them to follow you while tossing stuff at them. When you run out of ammo, run around like a chicken in search for more. It is enjoyable in same sadistic way like kiting archery is, but it feels wrong imho. Dedicated class for trolls, nothing more.

Nerfing something on the basis of it being annoying is silly. Its not even close to overpowered anyways. Best way to deal with throwers is to either ignore them (they dont do shit anyways, chances are they will teamhit when trying to stop you from switching to a new target) or if you are fast enought yolo charge straight forward risking to take a hit to get close enough. I havent really been bothered by a thrower in a while, except when they get a lucky headshot with a lance. Ow
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Leshma on April 27, 2015, 04:04:30 pm
As far performance goes, that takes experience and some cheating. Just like with every ranged class, you can cheat by switching to glowing textures etc. Probably makes throwing much easier, cause I'm struggling to see trajectory of projectiles and where they have fell for easier pick up. Think that many dedicated throwers use these simple texture cheats.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on April 27, 2015, 06:11:46 pm
I agree that full thrower builds are troll builds well in all honesty it's kiting that's the real troll, but to nerf throwing because of the way some people play the class does not make sense. If someone finds kiting an easy way to kill they will continue to do so until you nerf it down to dealing 0 damage.

don't nerf the class just encourage different gameplay
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Kalp on April 27, 2015, 06:30:19 pm
Problem is when half of server is some kind of ranged, they even make machine gun nests, then i'm scared   :P
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Dansk viking on May 24, 2015, 11:49:42 am
I've been trying a build that includes throwing (not very optimal, Norman-look-alike), and I'm sorely disappointed. Firstly I found out that you require HA to use throwing weapons on horseback, okay, that 3 HA made the hybrid build less viable - but it should be worth it!

Think, throwing a man-lenght spear from horseback at full speed should kill anything it hits! But it hardly does any damage ~~

Not even horses go down without using your three throwing lances (yes, three because of the hybrid) - and sometimes not even that is enough... Horses! Horses that die from the slightest contact with arrows...


Now, I'd suggest lowering the amount of throwing lances (in your magical, invisible bag) to one. Keep it 2 slot, by all means, after all, it is almost as long as a 2 slot spear. Though one could argue that 1 slot would be better, also enabling some hoplites etc. to use them. But for God's sake, make it do some proper damage! It should have the same punch as a couched great lance when thrown at full speed from a horse.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: dontgothere on June 22, 2015, 07:04:15 am
LET MY THROWERS GO   :evil:

this thread is mandness sheer mandness
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 25, 2015, 09:43:58 pm
Wait, wtf is he talking about.... theres 4 classes...

1. Horse Archery. Absolute shit, can't kill a naked guy with a full quiver.

2. Bows. Very meh, terribly innacurate, and they shoot straws at you. Never been killed by an archer that I can even remember.

3. Xbows. Decent and playable class. The xbow provides a nice alternative to people who don't want to spend all their stats on ranged but like hunkering down to help support the team with ranged fire. Decent damage and decent accuracy, but nothing outrageous.

4. Throwing. My favorite class. Very versatile, and great against all the other ranged classes. Does lots of damage, but they weigh ALOT for their ammo capacity. So having 3 sets of throwing lances is really gonna slow you down in melee. A class to be respected, but certainly not overpowered.

Am I wrong on anything here?

Oh and P.S. -- as a shield/throwing combo build, I can assure you that throwing really isn't that overpowered. I get almost no kills with throwing, I mostly just wound them and make them take cover.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Reaktor_Rus on June 25, 2015, 09:51:22 pm
Screw ranged, make a melee only server!
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 25, 2015, 11:33:45 pm
Screw ranged, make a melee only server!

Its called duel, and its where all the 2h spammers congregate... **sudders**
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Ikarus on June 25, 2015, 11:41:55 pm
Quote
Bows. Very meh, terribly innacurate

wait what?
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Nehvar on June 25, 2015, 11:55:34 pm
Bows are neither inaccurate nor weak.  I don't know where you get that idea from.  Maybe you've only faced "new" archers with non-'loomed loadouts?  There's quite a bit of difference in power between 'loomed and non-'loomed archery.  As for accuracy; that's down to build and experience.  Players that spend generations as a dedicated archer can be annoyingly accurate even at long range. 

Try going up against an archer like Bynx, Luker or Zlutz on the NA side or Eldar Boss on the EU side (sorry, don't know that many EU archers by name) without a shield and you'll see what I mean. 
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 12:40:34 am
I have had luker and bynx turn me into a pincsuhion and I still have 1/2 health.

Earlier today, luker headshotted me when I had a barbutte on, and it only took a little notch off my health. GG
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: dontgothere on June 26, 2015, 01:10:16 am
throwing needs buff, i'm tired of my pt 12 MW jarids failing to kill on a headshot, just dumb
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 02:25:03 am
throwing needs buff, i'm tired of my pt 12 MW jarids failing to kill on a headshot, just dumb

Meh, I think throwing is quite balanced. They aren't exactly supposed to be 1 hit kills, THAT would be annoying for the poor 2hs.  :(
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: F i n on June 26, 2015, 11:04:58 am
Still supporting throwing nerf, playing pure thrower atm. It is all about trolling people, forcing them to follow you while tossing stuff at them. When you run out of ammo, run around like a chicken in search for more. It is enjoyable in same sadistic way like kiting archery is, but it feels wrong imho. Dedicated class for trolls, nothing more.

Judging a class and all the ppl playing it just by your own experience as a thrower is a very self-centered point of view. And the statement, the class is for trolls only is plain stupid and wrong.


Throwing Damage is high - agreed. But throwing is the ranged class that's got the most penalties.


+High damage
+Dynamic playstyle
+Good VS Cav


-low accuracy
-low ammo
-high weight
-vulnerable against archers
-fucked when ppl start getting shields
-requests high dedication of points


A class is just as good as it's natural enemies are bad.

Throwers seem overpowered because Infantry is crying instead of fighting.


Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gurnisson on June 26, 2015, 12:19:39 pm
Having played a lot as thrower recently, I found one problem with them. How quickly one can change between melee mode and throwing mode is not balanced, I'd say. The amount of free hits one can get from this particular (cheesy) tactic is silly. If it was possible to create a delay there, similar length to that of changing weapons, then it would be better, as you'd have to predict more and have high awareness to do well.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 03:43:36 pm
Having played a lot as thrower recently, I found one problem with them. How quickly one can change between melee mode and throwing mode is not balanced, I'd say. The amount of free hits one can get from this particular (cheesy) tactic is silly. If it was possible to create a delay there, similar length to that of changing weapons, then it would be better, as you'd have to predict more and have high awareness to do well.

NO. I swear to god it takes like 4 seconds after I press "x" for my javelins to turn into polearms. Its absolute bullshit.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gurnisson on June 26, 2015, 03:56:12 pm
NO. I swear to god it takes like 4 seconds after I press "x" for my javelins to turn into polearms. Its absolute bullshit.

Then you're doing something wrong. I use javs and lances myself. Hold throw -> x -> instant stab/right swing -> repeat procedure
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 26, 2015, 04:00:58 pm
(click to show/hide)

This, so much this.

The cheesy weapon mode swapping, while very cheesy, i do still like it. I dont play thrower much, but when i did i did try to abuse it a lot. It's fun to have a lot of tricks. Im always prepared for a thrower doing it when im approaching, that way its generally nullified.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Leshma on June 26, 2015, 04:45:25 pm
Having played a lot as thrower recently, I found one problem with them. How quickly one can change between melee mode and throwing mode is not balanced, I'd say. The amount of free hits one can get from this particular (cheesy) tactic is silly. If it was possible to create a delay there, similar length to that of changing weapons, then it would be better, as you'd have to predict more and have high awareness to do well.

Fin does it all the time. But switching to melee isn't main issue there, problem is insta turn attack most ranged abuse when fighting (many players get killed this way by the likes of Shoky, SeeYa and Melsar).

Don't forget that default switching button leads to throwing weapon not switching to melee, mostly because people miss-click X or are already pressing 3 keys on keyboards that only recognize up to 3 inputs at the same time (most cheap, non gaming keyboards have that limit).

Fin is right about some things he listed, but he's axe thrower and that is, arguably, weakest throwing subclass. Throwing lances are entirely different experience.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 26, 2015, 04:50:05 pm
Then you're doing something wrong. I use javs and lances myself. Hold throw -> x -> instant stab/right swing -> repeat procedure

Perhaps I am doing something wrong, I'm gonna practice this today.

But even so, its realistic. If your holding a javelin, I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to stab with it instead of throw it.

Fin is right about some things he listed, but he's axe thrower and that is, arguably, weakest throwing subclass. Throwing lances are entirely different experience.

I agree. Throwing axes/hammers really suck.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gurnisson on June 26, 2015, 05:04:27 pm
Perhaps I am doing something wrong, I'm gonna practice this today.

Maybe this:
already pressing 3 keys on keyboards that only recognize up to 3 inputs at the same time (most cheap, non gaming keyboards have that limit).
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on June 27, 2015, 06:54:59 pm
The animation hiding throwers can do is just crazy, that coupled with lolstabbing makes them very difficult to deal with in melee. I'd say drop the damage a touch on the lower tier throwing weapons like war darts and maybe javelins and slow down the mode change and they shouldn't be too bad. The problem is they're too effective in either melee or range, on my polearmer a few weeks ago I got thrown in the chest by a wardart which did half my health and then stabbed by the wardart guy during my stagger which killed me and I was pretty heavily armoured at the time.

Maybe have different throwing weapons have different specialties like throwing lances being good in melee but not so good in ranged and jarids the opposite so they can both do the job but different choices are better for different situations?
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 27, 2015, 10:40:58 pm
The animation hiding throwers can do is just crazy, that coupled with lolstabbing makes them very difficult to deal with in melee. I'd say drop the damage a touch on the lower tier throwing weapons like war darts and maybe javelins and slow down the mode change and they shouldn't be too bad. The problem is they're too effective in either melee or range, on my polearmer a few weeks ago I got thrown in the chest by a wardart which did half my health and then stabbed by the wardart guy during my stagger which killed me and I was pretty heavily armoured at the time.

Maybe have different throwing weapons have different specialties like throwing lances being good in melee but not so good in ranged and jarids the opposite so they can both do the job but different choices are better for different situations?

Wardarts are terrible, who even uses them. Even more so in melee. Nerfing wardarts would make as much sense as nerfing practise sword.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Oberyn on July 08, 2015, 01:36:45 pm
-Make throwing lances unusable after 1 throw, if thats not doable just lower the ammo count down to 1 and up dmg back to where it used to be to compensate.
-Remove jump throwing, it was removed for every ranged then baffingly added back to throwers, it's retarded and makes no sense.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Kenda on July 08, 2015, 03:57:24 pm
Perhaps I am doing something wrong, I'm gonna practice this today.

But even so, its realistic. If your holding a javelin, I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to stab with it instead of throw it.

I agree. Throwing axes/hammers really suck.

Fuck realism, this is a game which requires balance for full enjoyment and functionality.

Judging a class and all the ppl playing it just by your own experience as a thrower is a very self-centered point of view. And the statement, the class is for trolls only is plain stupid and wrong.


Throwing Damage is high - agreed. But throwing is the ranged class that's got the most penalties.


+High damage
+Dynamic playstyle
+Good VS Cav


-low accuracy
-low ammo
-high weight
-vulnerable against archers
-fucked when ppl start getting shields
-requests high dedication of points


A class is just as good as it's natural enemies are bad.

Throwers seem overpowered because Infantry is crying instead of fighting.



Low ammo is debatable, the ability to easily pick up what you throw aswell as the high damage nullifies the problem a bit, but agreed it is a small penalty.

What's annoying is that throwers can kill any infantry without a shield pointing their way with barely any skill input, the low accuracy is basically nullified in Closer ranged battles, the class is an obvious, practically skilless counter to infantry, to me as someone who likes to take the game quite seriously and do well it breaks the foodchain completely.

I've met throwers in places where I cant get to cover within the next 3 seconds and it's basically a guaranteed kill for him, his skill reflecting my survival is nonexistant.

Avoiding throwers isn't always an option.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 09, 2015, 09:07:38 pm
Fuck realism, this is a game which requires balance for full enjoyment and functionality.

Low ammo is debatable, the ability to easily pick up what you throw aswell as the high damage nullifies the problem a bit, but agreed it is a small penalty.

What's annoying is that throwers can kill any infantry without a shield pointing their way with barely any skill input, the low accuracy is basically nullified in Closer ranged battles, the class is an obvious, practically skilless counter to infantry, to me as someone who likes to take the game quite seriously and do well it breaks the foodchain completely.

I've met throwers in places where I cant get to cover within the next 3 seconds and it's basically a guaranteed kill for him, his skill reflecting my survival is nonexistant.

Avoiding throwers isn't always an option.

Avoiding throwers is quite often an option unless you put yourself in a bad situation. Awareness and positioning is key for everything, while brute force does work at times. Always have atleast one wall to be able to hide behind, even as a shielder, and everything should be gucci.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: La Makina on September 05, 2015, 03:23:18 pm
If a thrower can turn his javelin into a melee weapon, why couldn't the melee guy throw his sword as well!?
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Paul on September 09, 2015, 04:39:57 pm
Why would you want to throw your sword away?
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: Turkhammer on September 09, 2015, 04:51:03 pm
Fuck realism, this is a game which requires balance for full enjoyment and functionality.



Fuck balance.  Realism would be more challenging and fun.
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: POOPHAMMER on September 09, 2015, 05:35:45 pm
CTRL + F stone, rock

no results

Good good... Carry on
Title: Re: Ranged issue (nerf throwing in disguise)
Post by: La Makina on September 09, 2015, 08:40:46 pm
Why would you want to throw your sword away?

Well if that is your last chance before being pinned down by a javelin... I would throw mine.