cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on February 28, 2015, 01:35:31 am
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Why, oh why, would they put some sort of penalty to the rondel dagger, if you get a shield? ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT YOU MUST BE AN AGIWHORE TO USE A DAGGER WITH NO SHIELD?! Applying some sort of penalty to a crappy, short weapon which is almost unusable if you're not fast enough, when you get a shield to go with it? You can't block with the dagger. And how does the shield hinder anything in any way?! It's a flipping one-hand, for goodness sake.
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Shield + dagger glass cannon builds were really good and awful to fight against. Like horse archery, this was probably changed due to the fact that it ruins gameplay for everyone else. Horse archers and agi dagger/shield builds weren't too strong. They nerfed the build because it's absolutely shitty to have to fight one of these guys.
I'm a little grumpy that my xbow/shield/dagger build is fucked, but I'm glad that a really annoying class is nerfed.
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People dont know how to press E, so nerfs have to be slammed onto random builds. If you cant learn how to fight it, nerf it. It's just what the current balancing philosophy is, or actually i guess its always sort of been.
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Press E? You do know that best defense against kicks are stabs? Even if you kick good stabber he'll probably stab you regardless, which is going to negate your kick.
Never had much trouble with dagger+shield guys 1vs1, in group they can be pain in the ass but what isn't. One on one, I usually backpedal and use my reach when they try to stab me.
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What happened? You were always such a fanboy about every single messed up mechanic or unpopular change to cRPG until the most recent patch. Is it cos it was done by a new team?
What? What are you even talking about? I was implying that i thought the change was stupid, how does that make me less of a fanboy for messed up mechanics?
Press E? You do know that best defense against kicks are stabs? Even if you kick good stabber he'll probably stab you regardless, which is going to negate your kick.
Never had much trouble with dagger+shield guys 1vs1, in group they can be pain in the ass but what isn't. One on one, I usually backpedal and use my reach when they try to stab me.
Just speaking out of experience, kick and slash and thats one dead dagger shielder. Stabs counter kicks in native, in crpg you cant block anything so footwork and long reach counters kicks, agi daggers have footwork but not range, and so they are usually easy kicks.
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What next? They have nerfed lolstab, horse archers and dagger/shield abusers. Next they will nerf s key speed while swinging with a pole and that would leave almost no dumb mechanics to be exploited.
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Daggers can't be used for blocking and there is a perfect reason for that. They are extremely trolly in the hands of ultra-fast agiwhore troll builds.
Add in some shield skill and they become insanely annoying imps whose mission is to make sure that nodoby can have a decent fight (Oh there is a dude being ganked by 2 of my allies, why don't I just teleport my ass there and also backstab the guy? Surely, it must be hella fun. I also have a shield. I can block once and pretend that I am running off but stab him a few more times until he is dead and it becomes necessary for me to go and annoy other people).
I am not against diversity. Not everybody has to play the same heavy armor/2h/pole/1h/whatever combo. But there should be a limit even to the allowed extent of trolling. Dagger whores are expert fun ruiners. Stop whining about the fate you deserved.
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Daggers can't be used for blocking and there is a perfect reason for that. They are extremely trolly in the hands of ultra-fast agiwhore troll builds.
Add in some shield skill and they become insanely annoying imps whose mission is to make sure that nodoby can have a decent fight (Oh there is a dude being ganked by 2 of my allies, why don't I just teleport my ass there and also backstab the guy? Surely, it must be hella fun. I also have a shield. I can block once and pretend that I am running off but stab him a few more times until he is dead and it becomes necessary for me to go and annoy other people).
I am not against diversity. Not everybody has to play the same heavy armor/2h/pole/1h/whatever combo. But there should be a limit even to the allowed extent of trolling. Dagger whores are expert fun ruiners. Stop whining about the fate you deserved.
They die in one hit though, and have a range shorter than my dick. Dying is always annoying, i prefer to learn from it rather than try to get it removed from the game.
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They were annoying to fight, but if you are honest they never had a lot of opportunities, just the same stuff. I totally agree with Gravoth! (although there are more ways to kill them than "E") :D
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Thank the full agi trolls who used to abuse rondel with indestructible shields.
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They die in one hit though, and have a range shorter than my dick. Dying is always annoying, i prefer to learn from it rather than try to get it removed from the game.
And they have to die in 1 hit in return for the annoyance they are capable of causing. They shouldn't be allowed to be ultra fast+highly annoying+defensive at the same time. Even with a good and defensive shield, they are able to move like wounded boars and ruin everyone's fights. Stab, stab, stab, stab, fucking stab. Before you understand what is happening or successfully land a hit on your original target, they kill you and start moving on for the next target.
And also, I know historical accuracy isn't something we would like to discuss in crpg and it shouldn't be either. But I am pretty sure there were no troops in history who donned shields and fought with daggers behind them.
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And they have to die in 1 hit in return for the annoyance they are capable of causing. They shouldn't be allowed to be ultra fast+highly annoying+defensive at the same time. Even with a good and defensive shield, they are able to move like wounded boars and ruin everyone's fights. Stab, stab, stab, stab, fucking stab. Before you understand what is happening or successfully land a hit on your original target, they kill you and start moving on for the next target.
And also, I know historical accuracy isn't something we would like to discuss in crpg and it shouldn't be either. But I am pretty sure there were no troops in history who donned shields and fought with daggers behind them.
In the perfect scenario where no one attacks them back then yes they can run around and hit everyone. I can do that with my plate str character. If they take one hit though they are dead, which isnt rare in a massive fight
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There's a point when you need to throw away some realism to make the game more enjoyable for others.
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It is speed bonus issue. And by what I've gathered from last time San was writing about it, we're basically fubared. I thought that lowering speed bonus value will nerf agility builds but it has complee oposite effect. My 18/24 shielder with 33 cut weapons hits harder most of the time than my 27/15 shielder with 39 cut weapon. That is because of speed bonus.
Only way out of this is to significantly nerf/limit top movement speed and acceleration but you guys don't like that. Even though bunch of people playing native have nothing against their "slow" characters.
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There's a point when you need to throw away some realism to make the game more enjoyable for others.
Nothing in this game breathes realism. And this mechanic was tremendously op in most scenarios, specially if you were lucky to have a decent connection and decent routing to the servers.
Most of the times when I was fighting against one of these players I was already being 1 (or 2) hit stabbed by them even before the animation started. With my shit ping and when I used this mechanic, it felt stupidly op and unfair to anyone else, even more than the old Awlpike+native animations bullshit era, or the rotflcopter pike/longspear aim-to-the-sky bullshit that even most respectful players abused.
Sadly TW presented us with this "brilliant" feature called speed damage bonus, which can't (won't) be changed.
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That mechanics works well in game they designed. But it doesn't work well in modified version of their game, where certain game variables are greatly amplified.
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From my experience i think speed bonus works great. An agi based build has potential to hit harder from what ive noticed, but a str based will deal much more reliable and consistent damage.
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Shield + dagger glass cannon builds were really good and awful to fight against. Like horse archery, this was probably changed due to the fact that it ruins gameplay for everyone else. Horse archers and agi dagger/shield builds weren't too strong. They nerfed the build because it's absolutely shitty to have to fight one of these guys.
I'm a little grumpy that my xbow/shield/dagger build is fucked, but I'm glad that a really annoying class is nerfed.
K K K fine.
EDIT: I'm playing 3/42 right now and it's hard to get any kills.
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I remember deciding to build an agi shielder before the patch of destiny. I figured fast footwork would work with a crappier shield, and I was tired of the slowness of a balanced shielder- in a duel you just can't get a hit in. Then I decided to equip a dagger as well, just for looks.
Well, in no time I was having so much fun running up to people and spamming them in the face with my rondel. It is fun, but a dirty, sick kinda fun. I usually showered after that.
So, as great as it was, I really think it looked stupid, and out of shame I didn't make that build again.
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So much of the balancing issues in this game come from the nature of the damage system, that is, it's exponential. Speed * PS * Damage. If you increase just one value, it's an incremental improvement but if you improve two values, the difference is huge. Coupled with pierce damage for pretty much every stab in the game, there is hardly any damage mitigation. Since stabs are straight forward, and daggers have such a short range forcing you to move forward the whole time, you will always have a full speed bonus, unless your opponent is back pedaling.
The damage system for stabs specifically should be reworked if you ask me, since in my opinion they are one of the most problematic mechanics of the game.
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So much of the balancing issues in this game come from the nature of the damage system, that is, it's exponential. Speed * PS * Damage. If you increase just one value, it's an incremental improvement but if you improve two values, the difference is huge. Coupled with pierce damage for pretty much every stab in the game, there is hardly any damage mitigation. Since stabs are straight forward, and daggers have such a short range forcing you to move forward the whole time, you will always have a full speed bonus, unless your opponent is back pedaling.
The damage system for stabs specifically should be reworked if you ask me, since in my opinion they are one of the most problematic mechanics of the game.
At this point of the mod i dont think there are many balance issues, except for some underpowered weapons. I havent, in like a full year, felt like i died because imbalance. IMO the damage system just allows for a variety of playstyles, but they are generally put more or less on the same level of strength. Speaking only for melee, ranged atm is questionable, but i think people just need to adapt to the fact that ranged actually hurt now.
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I remember deciding to build an agi shielder before the patch of destiny. I figured fast footwork would work with a crappier shield, and I was tired of the slowness of a balanced shielder- in a duel you just can't get a hit in. Then I decided to equip a dagger as well, just for looks.
Well, in no time I was having so much fun running up to people and spamming them in the face with my rondel. It is fun, but a dirty, sick kinda fun. I usually showered after that.
So, It was great as it was, I really think it looked stupid, and but out of shame stupidity I didn't make that build again.
Edited.
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The real travesty is giving the cleaver penalty with shield. This is a completely undeserved nerf to Swedish Chef.
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The real travesty is giving the cleaver penalty with shield. This is a completely undeserved nerf to Swedish Chef.
I've done cleaver with 3/42, and it really works. Guess the speed bonus really helps in this case.
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The real issue here is the 1 hand stab. I think a little fiddling with that so that it has some time after the animation starts before it deal damage would be a better solution. The reason these builds were annoying was that you could hardly take off down block for a split second without eating a dagger, and the stab feints were easy to cancel without penalty. This isn't unique to the daggers
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What is dis QQ bull.
No.