cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grumbs on December 23, 2014, 11:28:21 pm
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Just wondering if this is the gameplay how the devs envision it? To me its all about dancing around, spamming, holding S key and endless ganking. Doesn't feel very deep or tactical
This is nothing to do with melee vs ranged vs cav balance
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How exactly would you make it "more tactical"?
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I'd slow it down a bit and increase survivability. ATM people just go all out offence with spamming and dancing around to force glances or the models go out of sync with the server
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I'd slow it down a bit and increase survivability. ATM people just go all out offence with spamming and dancing around to force glances or the models go out of sync with the server
That was what they did, in three years. Until the latest patch, of course. The problem with that is boredom. When things are slowed down and survivability is increased, a fight can theoretically last forever. Until someone gets bored.
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Make it more like native, fast weapon swings without artificial limiters (implemented over time in cRPG) but slow movement speed. Fights cannot last forever, we're not talking about duel server. You have like 5-10 seconds to quickly dispose of your opponent before someone else approaches. With slower movement speed it is actually easier to kill people because if they cannot block or their footwork is atrocious, they die. Currently, they can get out of range if they play most popular build which seems to be 15/30 these days.
cRPG gameplay is incredibly dull compared to native servers.
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restart the laggy server first
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High agi s key spam is for me really irritating. Chase them it works for them, ignore them and they follow then arse hit you when you fight someone else. Hard stat cap at 31 please.
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I think the change really started with the beginning of cav rearing because the number of support builds and weapons decreased since then.
Keeping the threat of cav and ranged high forces infantry into proper tactics. Slow down the weapons and people will be able to block each other forever. Strength is naturally going to lean towards ganks while agi is going to ninja and backstab.
The threat of cav gives importance to some team-based classes. Looking back, the change to rearing wasn't so great since it caused everyone to switch to dueling polearms, making the infantry composition a bit lopsided.
The threat of ranged changes how infantry groups move around and increases the composition of shielders. 0-2 difficulty shields have been buffed over the past few months, so even if ranged is buffed, there are options available to protect oneself. The problem is how to keep ranged numbers manageable, make it fun from the archer perspective, and avoid tactics like kiting.
Perhaps athletics scales too much, too. It wasn't much of an issue when there wasn't much more than a 1-2 difference most of the time and an agi build delegated you to 3-12 strength, but now a difference of 2-4 is common with 15-18 strength agi builds. A difference of 1 athletics is likely a greater difference than it should be with the new levels.
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How about increasing self stun when you block as well as slowing down attacks (reduce weapon weight maybe)? That way people can still spam if they out manoeuvre you between attacks. The spam we have no seems kind of skillless or thougtless
Besides that I do think Athletics needs to be toned down a bit, in speed and damage and for the sake of fair gameplay over the internet
Not sure about buffing ranged and cav - they already seem pretty strong especially throwing and xbows. About regular poles being good against cav - I think this is a problem with the 1 and 2d poles being underpowered rather than the other way around. The gameplay is all about fast swings and pole stabs aren't very good in general imo
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Attack speed isn't an issue, agility is. Native swings are fast, but agility is fairly low there. People move slower and attack faster. Swings and thrust are instant which is good, because they are predictable. Nothing in cRPG is predictable. This is an experiment which didn't work out.
Combination of 7 day free respec and STR losing its charm is what led us to this situation.
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That was what they did, in three years. Until the latest patch, of course. The problem with that is boredom. When things are slowed down and survivability is increased, a fight can theoretically last forever. Until someone gets bored.
it was soooo boring, that MANY people played daily, on every server ( until conquest killed siege ) for months and months( years? ), even on dtv, it was active everyday, thats just how boring it truly was ( until fips ). it was sooo boring that old time players, simply couldnt walk away ( until the tydeus agi patch, THATS when people actually started leaving and not coming back RIP Pulse_LoV ) they would leave for maybe a week or so and come back begging to be bored to death again, cuz being bored is super fun, and those were certainly boring times.
yup, it was a truly mind numbingly boring time for crpg, with people leaving the mod in droves daily.
also, the sky... is actually red.
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also, the sky... is actually red.
desert fog best fog
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There are many problems now that were created by a perception of nerfing this class to balance this class. The ideas behind some of the nerfs I can understand but when they didn't work out or people started quitting the mod because of them; shouldn't someone have swallowed their pride and undone or reverted a portion of the patches? Back in the day you'd get the "big" patch, then a few days later, and enough tears, we'd get a hotfix that would change some of the issues identified through player experience, that didn't quite work as intended. I think the hard line of like it or leave it that we have now, has caused a lot of people to leave it. We all type words on the forums and through the balance section about what we think is best, but then nothing happens. If it does happen, it happens MONTHS later, when the person who originally brought up the problem and/or suggestion has already moved on to a different game or simply doesn't give enough of a shit anymore about this mod to bring them back.
It's a sad state that we're in now. I understand that chadz and co. are developing a new game and I wish them the best of luck which is why none of this stuff gets reverted. Someone needs more access to be able to change things more frequently or just let this mod bleed out and die. I've had my fun but now it's a chore to play this, it's a chore to play strat, the fun is gone for me. Maybe that's my own fault but I know it's not. The variety of builds is no longer prevalent. When ranged isn't a threat, you've got no shielders. When cavalry isn't a threat, you've got no variety in polearms. The variety in the player base is gone as well because of the limited options we have now for builds to be successful. Oh, so you can block, doesn't matter, watch me dance around you as you glance all over. RIP mod. You were a favorite of mine and I know I'll play on my alt here and there but it's time I moved on.
How I feel:
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I'd slow it down a bit and increase survivability. ATM people just go all out offence with spamming and dancing around to force glances or the models go out of sync with the server
That wouldnt make it more tactical it would just make it more boring
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That wouldnt make it more tactical it would just make it more boring
Slower movement means people have more time to think about their decisions and encourages people to get closer together before engaging, because once the fight is on you aren't getting backup as easily. Slower swing speed makes blocking easier but it encourages people to really think about which attack type to use and outplay the other guy. With more weapon stun you could still spam and get past people's blocks..the lack of weapon stuns now is causing some of the issues imo.
More survivability means you can make tactical plays like flanking that might just get you recked if you die from a stray hit. It seems now people just try to spam as much as they can before their inevitable quick death. There isn't much tactical play like before imo. Its also fairer for the less "twitchy" gamers - fighting games should be more than who has the fastest reactions, lowest ping or best spam technique
Also the game got harder for the mediocre/noobie players and easier for the better players imo. Any good player will still block really well, but the less decent ones just have to make 1 mistake and they are pretty much dead
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Slower movement means people have more time to think about their decisions and encourages people to get closer together before engaging, because once the fight is on you aren't getting backup as easily. Slower swing speed makes blocking easier but it encourages people to really think about which attack type to use and outplay the other guy. With more weapon stun you could still spam and get past people's blocks..the lack of weapon stuns now is causing some of the issues imo.
More survivability means you can make tactical plays like flanking that might just get you recked if you die from a stray hit. It seems now people just try to spam as much as they can before their inevitable quick death. There isn't much tactical play like before imo. Its also fairer for the less "twitchy" gamers - fighting games should be more than who has the fastest reactions, lowest ping or best spam technique
Also the game got harder for the mediocre/noobie players and easier for the better players imo. Any good player will still block really well, but the less decent ones just have to make 1 mistake and they are pretty much dead
Grumbs either you're dumb or you're inexplicably ignorant of even the most basic principles that make M&B combat work.
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Grumbs either you're dumb or you're inexplicably ignorant of even the most basic principles that make M&B combat work.
Would appreciate more than "i don't agree therefore you're dumb". Care to elaborate a bit?
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I hope that playing archery is more rewarding, all i got was "fuck your mother" from random russians
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Make it more like native, fast weapon swings without artificial limiters (implemented over time in cRPG) but slow movement speed. Fights cannot last forever, we're not talking about duel server. You have like 5-10 seconds to quickly dispose of your opponent before someone else approaches. With slower movement speed it is actually easier to kill people because if they cannot block or their footwork is atrocious, they die. Currently, they can get out of range if they play most popular build which seems to be 15/30 these days.
cRPG gameplay is incredibly dull compared to native servers.
this ^
also, nerf lag, servers are basically unplayable last few months, constant animation skipping
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Make it more like native, fast weapon swings without artificial limiters (implemented over time in cRPG) but slow movement speed. Fights cannot last forever, we're not talking about duel server. You have like 5-10 seconds to quickly dispose of your opponent before someone else approaches. With slower movement speed it is actually easier to kill people because if they cannot block or their footwork is atrocious, they die. Currently, they can get out of range if they play most popular build which seems to be 15/30 these days.
cRPG gameplay is incredibly dull compared to native servers.
So you would like to have more 2h players because its hard right, If you whant to have the native combat speed then you would make it even harder for them...
I for one love the cRPG combat system, it is fairly harder compared to native.
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Complaints about spam? Suggestion to make both attacking and blocking slower? Desperate plea for more "tactical" gameplay. Is this thread actually just a parody list of Awful Player ideas?
Slower swing speed makes blocking easier but it encourages people to really think about which attack type to use and outplay the other guy.
It's like you've never even played the game.
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You're right, objecting to one person's proposed changes is the same thing as objecting to all change... derp
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Higher survivability in c-rpg is actually what encourages spam. People can sometimes shrug off a couple of hits, so spamming isn't as risky.
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Make it more like native, fast weapon swings without artificial limiters (implemented over time in cRPG) but slow movement speed. Fights cannot last forever, we're not talking about duel server. You have like 5-10 seconds to quickly dispose of your opponent before someone else approaches. With slower movement speed it is actually easier to kill people because if they cannot block or their footwork is atrocious, they die. Currently, they can get out of range if they play most popular build which seems to be 15/30 these days.
cRPG gameplay is incredibly dull compared to native servers.
It's been awhile since I played any native servers, would Viking Conquest be considered native? Because I swear I move 10x faster there than I do in crpg with 7 athletics.
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Would appreciate more than "i don't agree therefore you're dumb". Care to elaborate a bit?
I don't really feel I need to do that in much detail. It doesn't take much experience in this game to understand that increasing block stun, slowing down attacks or decreasing lethality is dumbing down. You literally encourage spam as the only legit way to get past other people's blocks. It's more of a case of "the things you say are so dumb they make me think you are probably dumb".
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I dislike the way Kaoklai interacts with people, but he's got a better model of game mechanics than most players in this game. A lot of what you're seeing here comes from having an incorrect understanding of how the game work. The only way to figure out what 'correct' is involves making predictions and testing them. This is something he does more than just about any NA (who aren't on the balance team) player. I don't play enough EU to make a judgement there.
We had a long period in which to experience the form of gameplay that the OP reportedly wants. It wasn't terrible. It's better for high-ping balance and introducing newer blood into the game, but it does not make for a more challenging game 'akin to Native'.
I like Native well enough to play every other month or so, but it is far from balanced. I suspect people like Native more because the lack of variety in stats makes it more predictable (note how much easier it is to chamber in Native) and, to be honest, the average (not comparing competitive clans/duelists) player in Native is easier to beat. Have you SEEN the Native greatsword stab?
I'm not saying the mod is perfect, just that it is better than Native from an individual balance perspective. I do believe that cRPG leaves much to be desired on the tactical front, but I place a lot of the blame for that on the game's current dominant culture: 'lol wai u try so hard'. It's not that tactics don't work- the few times people try to actually work together, they seem to roll the other team. Then people on the other team leave. I do not doubt that the old hammer-and-anvil would work just as well now as it did in 2011. It's just that you no longer have a couple dozen people willing to try it and coordinate anything of the sort.
Admittedly, buffing support (ranged + cav) would serve to encourage play like that, but it's still a cultural problem at it's core.
Also, mothertruckers, spam is a god damn trick your mind plays on you. It's an easy excuse for your mistakes. The beauty of this game (in melee engagements, at least) is that so much of whether you win or lose comes down to player control. Blaming your losses on spam is a rationalization from someone who doesn't think it's possible to get better than they are. Just like the trend (not as common now) of claiming every other decent player had autoblock.
Now, if there was a limit on blocking or some sort of stamina mechanic, well, you'd have a point. There isn't.
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lower movement speed a bit and increase attack speed, but also increase WPF penalty for armour +++
although, TBH At fifteen, I had the will to learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ; at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the square. so dont bother.
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I don't really feel I need to do that in much detail. It doesn't take much experience in this game to understand that increasing block stun, slowing down attacks or decreasing lethality is dumbing down. You literally encourage spam as the only legit way to get past other people's blocks. It's more of a case of "the things you say are so dumb they make me think you are probably dumb".
I wonder why the game is such a total spam fest now then compared to before the patch. Before the patch you beat people's blocks by playing better, it wasn't about the speed of your attack but holds, feints, shit like that. Now its more dumbed down because its a case of brute forcing a fight - you win through better reactions and volume of attacks. If you die in a couple hits you might as well try to get a lucky hit in with spam. Also the longer the fight goes on the longer people have to adapt to a fighting style which again results in the better player winning
Also, mothertruckers, spam is a god damn trick your mind plays on you. It's an easy excuse for your mistakes. The beauty of this game (in melee engagements, at least) is that so much of whether you win or lose comes down to player control. Blaming your losses on spam is a rationalization from someone who doesn't think it's possible to get better than they are. Just like the trend (not as common now) of claiming every other decent player had autoblock.
Well I just see an awful lot of average - poor players getting cheap kills they wouldn't get before. There is a skill in some spamming, but it shouldn't be the go-to skill people use imo. The difference is like between a tactical shooter and a quake style twitch shooter. Different types of skills come into it. Muscle memory and reactions should take a back seat to more cerebral fighting styles imo
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Does someone even play cRPG now ? Only thing I see from website is basically 15 to 30 people on EU1/EU2, and something around 5/10 people on DTV. Why can't you decide to move on ?
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I like pancakes with nutella.
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I think melee (well, mostly 2 slot weapons) should always have high lethality, since 2slot melee weapons and IF are the largest differences between melee and other classes most of the time. In a game where you can have 1 guy at 45hp in 40 armor and another above 100hp in 79 armor, increasing survivability could have an extreme effect on tanks.
The wpf curve was alright for old levels, but they were likely not envisioned with level 35-37 as the norm since 7-13 WM likely assumed extremely low PS.
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I wonder why the game is such a total spam fest now then compared to before the patch. Before the patch you beat people's blocks by playing better, it wasn't about the speed of your attack but holds, feints, shit like that. Now its more dumbed down because its a case of brute forcing a fight - you win through better reactions and volume of attacks.
Now you're contradicting yourself. One post you want less blocking and more spamming and the next you want less spamming?
If you die in a couple hits you might as well try to get a lucky hit in with spam.
What happens is exactly the opposite actually. Spam only works if you can sustain the risk with a lot of HP. Spam tends to drive the outcome of a fight out of the player's hands and put it in control of whoever needs the fewest hits to kill the other.
Also the longer the fight goes on the longer people have to adapt to a fighting style which again results in the better player winning
Which means that again, players should be encouraged to primarily defend themselves.
Well I just see an awful lot of average - poor players getting cheap kills they wouldn't get before.
I think you just don't realize how bad some players who were successful before really were. Heavy armor and lots of HP enabled terrible players to kill via a figurative rape of the game's mechanics. Now that the HP sponginess has been toned down it's much harder.
There is a skill in some spamming, but it shouldn't be the go-to skill people use imo. The difference is like between a tactical shooter and a quake style twitch shooter. Different types of skills come into it. Muscle memory and reactions should take a back seat to more cerebral fighting styles imo
There's a huge difference between putting emphasis on spamming and putting emphasis on blocks. Having little room for error forces you to be either more skilled or more careful.
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If you're getting spammed to death to the point you think the mechanics need to be changed your footwork sucks or you have the reaction speed of someone who has become old and retarded.
This is just a complaint that you can't keep up with the community's skill level.
Yeah, they're average or poor but they're doing better than you because they found a trick that you can't pull off.
You assume i'm talking about people killing me. My kpd went up about average .5 from before the patch despite being higher lvl than more people pre patch. The game got easier imo for the wrong people. Its got more elitist and at the same more shallow
Now you're contradicting yourself. One post you want less blocking and more spamming and the next you want less spamming?
Don't know what you're on about here. I suggested a way to keep spamming as a valid tactic for people who like that by making weapon stuns more prevalent. I'm easy either way though
Again though I'm yet to see other solutions to the spammy gameplay we have atm, because its definitely something that increased with the patch
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People are asking for content updates and they haven't even released an official hot-patch for the patch of destiny. The patch of destiny is the last patch, there is no group of people willing to commit the time and energy into cRPG that would make it fun and enjoyable again. It's nobodies fault the mod is old and the original devs are busy, so it only makes sense. That is the reality of mod oriented games, when people aren't willing to volunteer it falls apart. So to answer the title of this thread: Yes. Everything is going to stay the exact same unless new leadership takes over but that is not up to anybody within the community, but with the original devs who are too busy with M:BG.
End rant.
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Still can't believe people argue with grumbs, he's an average c-rpg player who relies on loom crutching.
He's been playing the Mod for 3 years and is still terrible, I think it's time to ignore him.
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Still can't believe people argue with grumbs, he's an average c-rpg player who relies on loom crutching.
He's been playing the Mod for 3 years and is still terrible, I think it's time to ignore him.
The old "attack the character rather than the points raised". I must have really made you mad at me at some point its all you do atm
Loom crutch? Who doesn't have looms and I use body, gloves and a weapon (7 looms, 2 body, gloves, 2 poles and some other weapons). If i' terrible I must be lucky as hell
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At this point, looms create more issues than they have benefits.
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Still can't believe people argue with grumbs, he's an average c-rpg player who relies on loom crutching.
He's been playing the Mod for 3 years and is still terrible, I think it's time to ignore him.
It's so fun to see you say that since i see you running around with loomed plate and a +3 katana with a str build and say stuff like that, this cranks me up..
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It's so fun to see you say that since i see you running around with loomed plate and a +3 katana with a str build and say stuff like that, this cranks me up..
You're seeing things
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Does someone even play cRPG now ? Only thing I see from website is basically 15 to 30 people on EU1/EU2, and something around 5/10 people on DTV. Why can't you decide to move on ?
when you've invested so much time in something you enjoy, as all of us here have, it's nice to keep thinking about ways to improve upon it, even when they're no longer needed, and the dream has died :):)
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The old "attack the character rather than the points raised". I must have really made you mad at me at some point its all you do atm
Well you didn't really raise any points either. That the game should be slower is your dumb opinion, it's not an argument.
As to why so much vitriol: I don't know, I don't have any specific reason to be so mean with you specifically.
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Well I backed my opinion up with some theory behind it. When you're good at this game blocking is easy, it doesn't matter how "fast" you make it. Its easy pz. What you do infact is make it harder for the bad players, while making it easier for the good players to kill them. You make cheesing easier
Anyway this game doesn't need to be even more geared towards the "in the know" elites of the servers. We have like 30 guys players at peak, making it less accessible is the wrong direction to take imo. Less HP, harder gameplay (for the bads) is just making it less popular
Slowing everything down reduces the "twitch" mechanics prevelence..it allows people to use their brain more to win
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I object to that, slowing the game down emphasizes character builds and equipment over skill, which gives an advantage to long time players. But also it has a tendency to smooth out the outcomes i.e. the guy with the best equipment, build and skill will win more often if everybody can soak a lot of hits, which means those with less equipment, build and skill will win less often. Thirdly and perhaps most importantly, slowing the game down would once again increase the importance of numbers in melee combat, which is a much smellier cheese than anything a single guy can pull off.
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Just wondering if this is the gameplay how the devs envision it? To me its all about dancing around, spamming, holding S key and endless ganking. Doesn't feel very deep or tactical
This is nothing to do with melee vs ranged vs cav balance
How is it that people have such different experiences playing crpg now? To me there's plently of W, aswell as S-keying, both are needed in different situations. To avoid ganks and get upper hand on footwork, you need to S-key, to gank and get in to fights you need W, pretty basic stuff. Nothing wrong with it imo, i dont see why people hate on people backing out, just switch target, sheesh.
There is spam yes, but i always blame myself when i get spammed, shouldnt have feinted, should have had better positioning, shouldve just blocked etc etc.
Slowing down combat even further would be insane, any average player would probably block everything forever and we'd have neverending duels.
DONT NERF ANYTHING, BUFF AND MAKE GAMEPLAY MORE INTERESTING. NERFING SLOWS SHIT DOWN.
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I object to that, slowing the game down emphasizes character builds and equipment over skill, which gives an advantage to long time players. But also it has a tendency to smooth out the outcomes i.e. the guy with the best equipment, build and skill will win more often if everybody can soak a lot of hits, which means those with less equipment, build and skill will win less often. Thirdly and perhaps most importantly, slowing the game down would once again increase the importance of numbers in melee combat, which is a much smellier cheese than anything a single guy can pull off.
There is a difference between slowing down character movement and slower attacking speed. Currently, in cRPG some weapons and build combinations have that native like omfg attack speed, but most attacks are still painfully slow even for build with 24 AGI and more. Movement speed is through the roof, which means footwork has the biggest role. Since there are few players left, many of them have high ping (anything higher than 50 I consider as high ping), many of them are from different continents. Those players can't block and attack like those with normal ping, so they can only spam combined with good footwork. Which is how cRPG is atm. Native is completely different and relies heavily on attack and blocking patterns, due to lower average HP and armor fights last a lot shorter in Native.
In other words, cRPG combat is random while Native is tactical and predictable. Skill always wins in Native, in cRPG it is often combination of gear and luck.
I can block native macro spammers quite successfully. Can't do the same in cRPG because servers are pure garbage and lag is omnipresent regardless of what ping shows.
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Also the reason spam is so big right now is because blocking is pretty damn easy. The best way to get around someones block is to casually spam (if you can afford to, considering your armor and hp). I've noticed this because i do this because fuck it gets boring duelling for 1-2 minutes in the battle server just waiting for someone to come gank to speed the process up. Agi builds to me change this up completely, and instead of just random spamming it gives you the possibility to use your range and outreach people, its spam too in a sense, but takes more planning.. Probably not much safer than random face tank spam, but more exciting.
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Weapons are too slow in general and players have way too much HP and armor. If all it took to kill an enemy were two or three good hits, then you wouldn't complain so much about blocking.
Outreaching is lame, you can do that in any game with melee mechanics. This one is special because it has directional combat, that should be the way to win, not playing the range game.
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Weapons are too slow in general and players have way too much HP and armor. If all it took to kill an enemy were two or three good hits, then you wouldn't complain so much about blocking.
Outreaching is lame, you can do that in any game with melee mechanics. This one is special because it has directional combat, that should be the way to win, not playing the range game.
Outreaching doesnt completely shut directional combat out, it adds another layer of depth where more choices are available to you. Also more diversity in builds, since everything is viable in its own unique way. I dont see why directional combat should be the only part to the combat. Range game is not lame, makes you consider how long then enemies weapon actually is, how fast they move and if you can use your range to your advantage. Maybe you should expect them trying to pull a ranged spam off, then you just hold your attack aaaand easy damage, unless they also hold and keep walking backwards then suddenly it could be in their favour unless you block etc etc. So much to think about, love it.
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Weapons are too slow in general and players have way too much HP and armor. If all it took to kill an enemy were two or three good hits, then you wouldn't complain so much about blocking.
Outreaching is lame, you can do that in any game with melee mechanics. This one is special because it has directional combat, that should be the way to win, not playing the range game.
There's a sweet spot, though. Outreaching in Native is great, because it takes timing and isn't that easy to do. You need very specific footwork and just the right angle of attack for it to work against anyone decent. In cRPG, not so.
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just give me a pike or a long spear, haven't been using 4d weapons in months