cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: San on November 19, 2014, 05:45:09 pm
Title: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: San on November 19, 2014, 05:45:09 pm
Came across this recently. Provided me an interesting perspective on why people may like/dislike certain changes by using the Spike, Johnny, and Timmy archetypes.
Basically the way the three want to play is like this: Spike just wants to win, Johnny wants to win the game his way, Timmy wants to play the game his way.
If Johnny tries some weird stuff and he loses he will switch to something else. It's just going to be something weird and random, rather than a dominant strategy (which is what Spike will do). If Timmy plays his way and loses... he will continue to play his way!
If the game doesn't let him play his way then he will probably quit. If that's because he is completely shut out of the metagame then yeah, he is quitting "because of balance issues". But it's only tangentially related to balance--correlation not causation.
You're right that he will quit of there is a dominant and boring strategy.
I think the current balance team is dominated by "Johnny" archetypes, where a lot of the dominant strategies were toned down and nuanced play/utilizing the dominant strategy to compete was emphasized. Spike sees everything as "buff" or "nerf" no matter what, Johnny may have lost a fun little gameplan he had before, and Timmy may think that certain aspects may have become stale.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Nightmare798 on November 19, 2014, 07:53:33 pm
That is a fancy way of saying overall balance has got better.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 19, 2014, 08:36:18 pm
I think we can all understand why balancing the entire game around the 2h experience is a bad thing.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Thryn on November 20, 2014, 01:43:35 am
All I think I really want is just people to stop running as fast as they do.
I also would like level 35 to feel like the old 31 and not like level 35 as well.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: StonedSteel on November 20, 2014, 07:13:31 am
All I think I really want is just people to stop running as fast as they do.
I also would like level 35 to feel like the old 31 and not like level 35 as well.
if crpg went back to the way it was in strat 4 pre tydeus agi patch, id play it daily for hours!
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Rico on November 20, 2014, 11:50:40 am
Unless I have misunderstood some things, the reason for increasing the weight of ranged equipment and decreasing the speed of horse archers is that people shouldn't be able to pick their targets over distance and at the same time outrun others, because that would make them essentially invincible unless they make major player-skill-dependent mistakes.
If this is legitimate reasoning, how comes that the melee class with the highest effective weapon reach is the one who moves the fastest? The only situation where polearm and onehand attacks outrange the twohanded stab or even a Miaodao leftswing is because of terrible footwork of the twohanded user. Yet shielders have additional weight from the shield and polearms are usually heavier than twohanders.
When you play a balanced or strength-based onehanded build, there isn't much you can do against the 18/30 twohanded meta. They have the longer weapon, which means they can hit you while you can't hit back, and they have more athletics than you, which means that they can determine the distance between the two of you, putting the full potential of their longer weapon into practice. It forces onehanders to skill at least 3 more agility than the average twohander and wear lighter armor, but this again means they have 3 less STR and tend to glance against heavy armors and need much more hits to kill the enemy, who can easily afford heaving less STR because the nominal damage on twohanded weapons is higher than on onehanded weapons. The only way for onehanders to compensate their disadvantage is additional focus on hitting vital zones (which is exclusively the head in Warband). The onehanders who pull that off and manage to compensate their weak position in the meta by being better players sometimes encounter surprised reactions of twohanders who sincerely wonder how only four headshots from a paramerion could kill them despite their heavy armor.
The same is true for polearm in comparison to twohand, with the exception that polearms also have high nominal damage and thus don't suffer that much from picking AGI over STR.
It's a waste to blame one side for using the S key and the other side for using the W key, it's just the natural concept of the game. But the illustration given above shows that in order to be able to counter S with W, you need to have more AGI than the S user, which means have less power strike, which hurts onehanders more than other classes. The past has shown that a nerf of backpedaling speed will never happen, but how about making movement speed more dependent on melee weapon length than it currently is?
This would possibly make Timmy come back.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Kafein on November 20, 2014, 12:08:53 pm
Does that make me a Johnny archetype? Probably.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: AwesomeHail on November 20, 2014, 02:49:27 pm
I noticed that i do way better in 1v1 duels with pole than with 1h, just because of the longer reach and the damage output, 18 str is just barely enough these days.. I really have to think about what I am doing, because one hit can easily kill me, with 0 if and around 60 body armour.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Torost on November 20, 2014, 08:08:22 pm
crpg is now an infantrysimulator , not medieval battle.
guess I am a Timmy. Waiting for mounted thrower class to become playable again :D
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Kafein on November 20, 2014, 11:51:06 pm
By the way Panuru, all other things equal 1h no shield moves faster than 2h, and that pretty much regardless of weapon weight and length afaik. With a shield though, 1h are the slowest (well except hoplites but you get the idea).
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 21, 2014, 03:36:44 am
Pole arms move really slow when you get to the longer weapons like Glaive, Long Voulge, Long Maul, Long Spear, etc. I don't really know what the guy who wrote an entire essay is talking about. Also, 1h has almost no turnspeed restriction and pretty much every swing can hit the head, which can be very powerful in the right hands.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: korppis on November 21, 2014, 11:46:43 am
... The past has shown that a nerf of backpedaling speed will never happen, but how about making movement speed more dependent on melee weapon length than it currently is?
This would possibly make Timmy come back. ...
Or heavily bump up the str req on those big ass weapons, as well as for armors. 21 str minimum for greatswords and the like would be good start.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Kadeth on November 22, 2014, 04:14:41 am
It can't be an easy job to balance a mod like this, but I think you guys do a pretty good job (coming from someone who has never played range or cav, mind you).
I've been playing a lot more native lately, and it's interesting how much less complaining there is in the native community about things being OP, needing buffs/nerfs etc. I'm not sure if this is just because patches for native are so few and far between and players have accepted that there will be no change, but either way, native players seem to be more focused on finding ways to adapt, rather than whining until something changes. In native, I rarely see anyone complaining about the 2h stab being OP, even though it's much more powerful than the cRPG 2h stab. People just persevere until they're good at blocking it.
It's a shame that the buff/nerf mindset is so prominent in the cRPG community. I think that players should work a little harder to find ways to counter things that they believe to be OP, and spend time identifying their own weaknesses, rather than blaming game mechanics or weapon balance issues. But that would make life too easy =P
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: POOPHAMMER on November 22, 2014, 06:22:31 am
please bring back ladders thanks
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: HappyPhantom on November 22, 2014, 07:27:28 am
Agree with Goris, after arrow damage is un-nerfed, of course.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Algarn on November 22, 2014, 11:36:45 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_ddb3TC2ts
This is a video of a fallen tournament. Look at the bows they were using, and look at the ammount of arrows they had in their quivers, and the number of arrows they had to fire to make a kill. How could people survive against this fucking op range pls nerf till now ? Ranged is OP when it's protected by the team, but left alone, it's more or less some meat, without any chance to win against two ennemies. I would like to have more than a slight chance to win against more than 1 person comming at me, knowing they can dodge arrows, take 4/5/6 of them before going down, and if they reach me, I gotta kill them with 32 wpf and 5 PS.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 22, 2014, 05:48:31 pm
Ranged is OP because cav keeps getting nerfed into the ground.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Krex on November 22, 2014, 06:28:18 pm
Ranged is OP because cav keeps getting nerfed into the ground.
This. Archers complain about beeing UP now?So you want to kill my courser with 1 instead of 3 arrows?... Same for throwers,my horsie often gets killed 2-4 snowflakes,thats just a joke.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Algarn on November 22, 2014, 06:29:47 pm
Funny, because the ones archery is OP as fuck actually did not play much, or at all archery, or any kind of "ranged".
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Admerius on November 24, 2014, 04:40:06 pm
Quote from: San
...
Damn, I'm a misfit: BOB: He likes to propose all manner of changes to add new functions, most of them aren't that bad from a hardcore-realistic point of view, but if they are added on top of the current game mechanics they would triple the workload for the balance-team. The spirit in which they are given isn't bad, just as letting a very happy and playful dog into a convention for "World record in most complex domino setup" isn't bad...
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Kafein on November 24, 2014, 06:52:20 pm
The signaling is strong in this one.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: San on November 24, 2014, 08:34:23 pm
"Balance is a subtractive design element: The combined removal of unfairness, polarization, and homogenization.
Like most subtractive design elements, it is strictly and objectively good, but can never make a game good or fun by itself.
It only preserves the fun added by other elements (in this case content/build variety) from degenerating."
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 25, 2014, 03:01:12 am
Basically San just said to stop nerfing and removing everything.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: sWalker on November 25, 2014, 07:59:37 am
So San, when are you going to heed your own words and end the "unfairness." The sWalker is the greatest archer to ever live, but that means nothing when it takes 6 arrows(+3 longbow and bodkins) to kill a 2 hander that moves faster than an agi build from a year ago wearing heavy armor...that then proceeds to one shot the sWalker in +3 body armor...tell me how that strikes you as fair San...if you think it is, say so...otherwise fix it and maintain it so that the adjusted arrow damage still kills a horse in roughly 3 body shots.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Smoothrich on November 25, 2014, 07:10:58 pm
I think most balancing in cRPG is misguided really. I know there's good stats on server damage per weapon that I used to see but haven't in a while, you should post that if you can still get copies of it San.
Too many cRPG players are real narrow-focused and attached to specific builds and playstyles over years, all viewed in a weird black hole of unorganized pubbie play mixed in with banner stacking 5 year warband vets dominating, if any still even really play.
Everytime I play there is no one inventing any new playstyles, challenging my understanding of Warband combat, playing in some distinct way that inspires other people to get better. That shit was everywhere when cRPG was new. If I ever play now its like I am a relic from some ancient glorious classical peak of cRPG, shredding faceless hordes of mediocre white noise players who are all trapped in the dark ages of scrubdom, never evolving to step out of the promordial ooze.
A sense of competition has disappeared completely from the mod. People who have innate fundamental grasp of Warband mechanics, comparing and contrasting other rival player's decisions, adapting and discovering new bullshit to stomp people with and making it look cool.
Basically, without a competitive scene, all the competitive players will just get tired of shredding terrible players and leave the game for something else. Games with changing metas, differering opinions, organized teams or solo competitions where flavor of the weekers can actually show how to dominate doing something different or copying someone else.
I'm pretty sure Rohypnol alone has caused more balance changes than anything else, cuz he's one of those consistently shit stomping the server dudes and makes mechanics that seem easy or weak with regular players, suddenly become the most rage inducing OP unfair shit in the game. People would impersonate him and start trends with his HX performances. HX would get nerfed. He'd figure out some new build and loadout and immediately return to the same power level until nerfed again, etc.
Like it was all just balancing around some real good player pubstomping bads. Doesn't accomplish much except feed into expectations, reduce skill ceilings of classes or playstyles, drive good players away, bland up the gameplay.
Now if all the effort in skullfucking animations and raising or reducing the same stats on the same weapons every few months was instead used in buffing counters to current popular builds and making game modes or events that got competitive minded people in a competitive environment to demonstrate what really seems to be overpowered or what is just not understood and meta-countered yet.. you'd probably have something more like Dota than fucking cRPG.
Why I hope Melee Battlegrounds has twitch tv crap so good players can easily stream and people can copy their builds and playstyles and evolve community understanding of counters and interplay and shit maybe more naturally. Way cRPG has always been run "skill" is a lost metric in a sea of confirmation bias, claims of corrupt lobbyists or balancers only knowing 1 class, etc etc whining and bitching. When the only thing in balance discussions that matters should be what actual good players do or don't do. Who wins the most doing what and why? Not who posts the most bullshit.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: lombardsoup on November 25, 2014, 07:29:03 pm
Was under the impression that the mod is unbalanced on purpose for the sake of hilarity, QQ, and rage
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Smoothrich on November 25, 2014, 07:36:45 pm
Was under the impression that the mod is unbalanced on purpose for the sake of hilarity, QQ, and rage
It was more like that years ago, but every balance patch was too focused on nerfing popular things that people bitched about, gradually making people use cookie cutter builds and removing controversial playstyles and shit with hardcoded limitations.
The idea of wildly different unconventional overpowered playstyles all balancing each other out is my idea of good balance, but this mod has gone way in the wrong direction on it over years of cumulative changes that just lowered skill ceilings instead of making them always increase.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Bronto on November 26, 2014, 01:03:23 am
So San, when are you going to heed your own words and end the "unfairness." The sWalker is the greatest archer to ever live, but that means nothing when it takes 6 arrows(+3 longbow and bodkins) to kill a 2 hander that moves faster than an agi build from a year ago wearing heavy armor...that then proceeds to one shot the sWalker in +3 body armor...tell me how that strikes you as fair San...if you think it is, say so...otherwise fix it and maintain it so that the adjusted arrow damage still kills a horse in roughly 3 body shots.
This entirely. It's what I've been saying in all the other threads. You can't fight them in melee because you've got maybe 70 wpf and they've got at least 140 with 10PS and even with all that armor still weigh less than the average archer with two quivers, a longbow, and light to medium armor. Or they're like 15/30 in plate with 10ath but who cares. Nerf archers because it totally should take 5 arrows to kill a rouncey and 3 headshots to someone in plate. Hell I shot a guy, back when I had looms, with a mW yumi bow and bodkins four times right in the head and he still killed me in melee lol.
Edit: I'm currently testing out a 24/21 pure archer and will report back with my results or just contact you directly San. I will say this though, so far so good. The aim is ridiculous just wish I had more arrows ;).
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 26, 2014, 02:59:21 pm
Reintroduce effective cav to save the mod. Nerfing cav (wolves) into the ground has caused overpopulation of the ranged (elks) and caused overgrazing of the infantry (flora.)
The change in riding requirement was a good change, but nerfing cav while buffing ranged melee abilities was a horrible idea.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: RandomDude on November 27, 2014, 11:29:24 am
First i thought I was Spike. Then I read it and thought I was definitely not Spike or Johnny. I thought I might be Timmy but I'm not Timmy either.
I prefer to play one way, because I think big swords and plate armour is awesome. I remember it taking me a long time to decide it was ok to spend a skill point and buy a shield (back when you could carry flamberge in your pocket, and black armour/barbutte was all the rage in Fallen).
I was tired of getting shot up and hiding, and having a board shield helped a lot. It just meant I could continue playing hvy armour/2h.
That's a Timmy way of playing, right? But then the hate vs Gates/Bush/Police/Parents I don't identify with.
I guess having only 3 archetypes is too limiting.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: POOPHAMMER on November 29, 2014, 12:30:07 pm
It was more like that years ago, but every balance patch was too focused on nerfing popular things that people bitched about, gradually making people use cookie cutter builds and removing controversial playstyles and shit with hardcoded limitations.
The idea of wildly different unconventional overpowered playstyles all balancing each other out is my idea of good balance, but this mod has gone way in the wrong direction on it over years of cumulative changes that just lowered skill ceilings instead of making them always increase.
[Y]es
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 29, 2014, 07:08:02 pm
Great read, I'm a mix of the 3 examples in that post i must say. I prefer chosing playing as an underdog, but abuse anything that i can get my hands on to get the advantage when it gets to mechanics.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: Leshma on November 29, 2014, 07:23:45 pm
On EU side we fight douchebag ideas of 2H supremacy with throwing. If only more people would join the cause.
Title: Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
Post by: JasonPastman on December 15, 2014, 04:05:14 am
It was more like that years ago, but every balance patch was too focused on nerfing popular things that people bitched about, gradually making people use cookie cutter builds and removing controversial playstyles and shit with hardcoded limitations.
The idea of wildly different unconventional overpowered playstyles all balancing each other out is my idea of good balance, but this mod has gone way in the wrong direction on it over years of cumulative changes that just lowered skill ceilings instead of making them always increase.
Was under the impression that the mod is unbalanced on purpose for the sake of hilarity, QQ, and rage
Spring 2011 best C-RPG!.
Literally though what smoothrich said. I would take the idea even further to suggest that the concept of everything having the potential of being op is what makes a game great. When you don't have modernity through what he called hardcoded limitations you unleash the creative potential of the individual letting their imagination and skill be their only limitation. That's the only way to keep the interest of all but the hardest core, not to mention attracting new players. I don't believe that the population has fallen so substantially for any other reason then the changes that have limited the potential of most of the classes. The thing is when everything is op that is balance just as but not the same as if nothing is, one just happens to be more fun.