2h master race ist ubermensch
if you did not respec to a str 2h build you are playing this mod wrong
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poor teamwork is the issueThis argument has been reiterated through the existence of this mod and surprisingly hasn't ever had any effect on balance. If super efficient teamwork didn't magically drop from the sky during the last 4 years, it isn't going to happen now. Pub players don't communicate which creates issues.
But you should remember, that there is a few archers that are great in pew pew and if thay have good day, they can kill a lot, same as "masters" of other weapon kinds.
you can't just make an opinion about whole class because of one unie. Afaik Algarn have hi lvl
But you should remember, that there is a few archers that are great in pew pew and if thay have good day, they can kill a lot, same as "masters" of other weapon kinds.
you can't just make an opinion about whole class because of one unie. Afaik Algarn have hi lvl
Not every archer is high-level archer, been playing for years, with sub-80 ping.
I think patch has imbalanced the game for archers that don't fit the above, which can't equally be said of melee.
The point was to make the game n00b friendly wasn't it? I think you've probably done that for melee, but maybe not for people who want to be ranged.
egocentric pre-pubescent males
The teamwork I'm suggesting goes hand-in-hand with classes naturally countering each other instead of making each melee class its own army, viable for any situation.Bottomline is, you want people to charge archers when it is much safer and much more fun to not do it. Much like the past 4 years, it's not going to happen.
I wouldn't say I'm brilliant, but I tend to duck behind shielders when archers are shooting in my direction. That much should be intuitive.
Of course cav doesn't like to risk their horses by charging at archers, but that should be part of the job. Hit them from behind. Support your team by charging enemy melee so your shielders can get to them faster.
Two-handers don't like to risk their lives by charging at archers, but that's the obvious risk involved as two-hander; ranged (of any kind) can hit you.
Similarly, archers don't like to be nerfed into the ground, and that's reasonable too.
[...]I'm happy just so long as the ratio of cavalry to infantry to range is relatively reasonable[...]This has to be main goal of balancing imho. Very well written...
Put back damages, the accuracy now is too high, even with 10PD and a longbow.
Archery is always going to be an annoying thing for me. I'm happy just so long as the ratio of cavalry to infantry to range is relatively reasonable.
Not much sympathy here. I leave it up to the item balancers to work this one out. (lol)
Except that we want people to be focusing more on playing melee and less on playing ranged.
everything done to discourage new players - and old players alike - from picking up a bow and become an archer is done for the good of the mod. Simple as that.
I don't play, or play another class.
[...]I don't recall the last time a patch got this much reaction from archers.Well, while EU archers are mainly "yea... well... actually it ain't that bad, maybe even a bit too accurate... I rather just play than complain on the forum...", it's mainly NA "reacting" to the patch :oops:
[...]
Their plan is working then.
... maybe even a bit too accurate...
And about those "mimimi I can't use 4 PD bows anymore" - that sounds to me the same as when some melee dude complains that he can't kill a plated str whore with a cudgel in 3 hits.
You should also mentioned that infantry from my team were playing like idiots and they were standing still showing their faces to you ^^Put back damages, the accuracy now is too high, even with 10PD and a longbow.(click to show/hide)
When I first started playing cRPG in early 2011, archery was pretty scary.
Archers could really tear shit up, and they were nerfed accordingly into more of a support role.
If enemies were out in the open, I'd shoot for the chest or head in my best effort to get a kill, but when teammates were working on taking someone down, I'd aim strictly for the legs.
If I hit, it'd stun the enemy for a moment, just long enough for someone to get a hit in. If I missed and hit a teammate, I'd do less damage than an accidental TK headshot.
That support role worked really well for me, and I'm assuming it did with other archers and assisted melee teammates too.
We, as archers, were also able to help rid the match of cavalry, as well. Horse archers take first priority.
This lessened the stress put on melee infantry as they had less couched lances bearing down on them.
It required teamwork.
So, class counters.
"Balance" seems to have separated entirely from "class counters." The two should be holding hands.
Balance should not just be about making it less annoying for melee to deal with horse archers or correcting the longsword stats so it fits better in the sword hierarchy gag.
Each "class" should have a counter, and making each individual melee unit its own army isn't going to solve the problem unless the intention is to dig a large grave, fill it with archers, and cement it shut.
- Archers play a necessary support role in keeping horse archers and other cavalry off their melee teammates.
- Horse archers play a role in being a highly mobile archer, capable of flanking infantry and chasing away enemy cavalry.
- Polearm users can have a very strong offense or play a supporting role similar to that of shielder.
- Crossbow users support like an archer, but dish out higher damage on those wearing heavier armor.
- Two-handers are the main brunt of the attack and, in turn, are supporting the rest of their team.
The key here is that everyone is supporting each other in one way or another.
If your archers fail to get rid of that pesky horse archer, and that horse archer only has to worry about getting within five feet of a melee unit, the horse archer will win.
This is not a broken game mechanic, but broken teamwork.
If your cav or xbowers don't get rid of the three archers on the hill, and your two-handers get shot to shit running up that hill, it is (say it with me) not a broken game mechanic, but broken teamwork.
Nerfing archery even further was not a progressive step in the right direction, and it will ensure less players will spec ranged.
I know a few guys who are only playing the mod just so they can retire and spec out of archery.
Arrows are now fewer per quiver and even heavier than before.
For an archer to carry as many arrows as he had before, arrow weight has effectively doubled.
This is insane.
After talking with a few guys who play as archers and some STF testing myself, archers are now also way too accurate.
TL;DR
In summary, class counters have been dropped from the balance discussion; every class needs to be equal to all other classes. Each melee unit is his own army.
Archery, especially horse archery, has been shit on the hardest because melee players find them annoying and impossible to catch/kill; however, poor teamwork is the issue, not a broken game mechanic.
Un-nerf archery. Play your class well. Use your class' strengths to your advantage, and remember you are an important supporting member of your team (unless we continue along the one-man army route).
I'd really like to see some honest, thoughtful input from others.
Let me quickly post some unwanted responses in this spoiler so you don't have toI probably should note to the EU guys that I am an xbower, not an archer.(click to show/hide)
learn teamplay get a shield lol umaddd???
Your argument is really stupid and as baseless as it always was. So yeah, now you learn teamplay.
Their plan is working then.
And no, Molly, melee is not supposed to be the only class/playstyle adapting to changes. Granted, they haven't really had to. Ever.
At least, not with the consistent nerfs to archery.
I see that there is some effort here to balance effectively (higher accuracy, less arrows, etc), but it still isn't working. I don't recall the last time a patch got this much reaction from archers.
Even on an 8PD build, I was dumping half my arrows into targets. Maybe if I turned myself into a turret with 12 PD, I'd get a better result.
Still, the other issue is that the arrow count is too low, particularly with unloomed quivers. You shouldn't run out of arrows a third of the way through the match.
As others have said, the best approach now is to wait for everyone to get a few hits in, then start taking shots.
Anyway, maybe it's useless to argue for revisions or a compromise if the mindset is -> make archers miserable so we melee players have less to worry about, and therefore, have more fun.
The major thing I'm seeing here though is "ranged players can kill me and I don't like it."
Whenever I'm on my 2h or polearm alt, I rarely get killed by ranged.
75% of the time it's because I'm not paying attention to my surroundings and charge into the open like a hero.
I liked Huscarlton's idea of capping athletics for archers. That would be fine. That's a solid compromise worth implementing and trying out.
While the OP sounds great, it fails to acknowledge the human element. We(yes, I'm human too) make decisions based upon how we perceive the world. If 99% of melee don't want to stand around and wait for archers to kill the HA/other team's ranged, even though that's clearly, more often than not, the most sound strategy for winning — when you don't have a true competitive scene that can separate those who find simply winning (competition) more enjoyable than casually "having fun" — then from a game design perspective, you have to change your balance priorities.
Edit: It has been over a year and a half now of HA causing issues on the servers and teamwork hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed, is that people got fed up with it and evacuated the servers. Not only that, but I've stated multiple times for years now, that there are a lot of ways we could address HA/general ranged purely through maps and again nothing has changed. So any reservations one holds with respect to the idea that it if we just improve teamwork all our problems will go away, are simply naive.
The teamwork I'm suggesting goes hand-in-hand with classes naturally countering each other instead of making each melee class its own army, viable for any situation.
as a cav player pls buff archery back. I mean 10 arrows? lol. I know 2h always get the favorable treatment but this is such bs
I've never posted about any balance changes before (I may have cursed under my breath a few times), but a majority of the latest changes, particularly arrow count, seem too much.
Adapt, yes. I always have, and I've accepted the changes in the past, but I don't think all of these changes were necessary. A number of us don't.
It'd be nice seeing the balance team adapt as well.
I'm all down for reducing archer accuracy back to where it was before and restoring the arrow count.You'll have to help me understand why the ammo loss is more significant than -3 bow damage. Considering the number of players complaining about the ammo loss and the fact that I make no attempt to conserve ammo while playing regardless of my build or ammo type(aside from restricting myself to only one hail mary per round rather than two or three), yet almost never run out of ammo(once every three maps), it seems to be a problem that is utterly foreign to me. It's simply not there when I play, either in the mornings or during prime-time.
"Spray and pray" is rarely effective, at least at range and not point blank.
Archers are still going to strive to hit their target, and accuracy, from an archer's perspective, has never particularly been an issue.
Hell, while Tydeus was doing his "tests" he killed me once by archery and 6 times by melee on his archer character, because of course archery OP.This is probably why I dislike you so much as a person (or at least the persona you present to us). Intellectual honesty means absolutely nothing to you. I don't know why I'm surprised every time I see you conveniently leaving facts out. So yes, let's not mention your build or the fact that you were literally running to the edge of maps to safely come up behind me. Lets ignore the fact that you have a shield and high athletics, the go-to archer hunter build.
hahaha tydeus you spent half the map running so no shots coming out then. Most archers dont run away to the extreme extent you do in order to get the absolute highest core so you an post screenshots on forums and tell everyone archery is not UP. If you are actually supporting your teammates and helping them win instead of going for score to prove a point you run out of arrows fairly quickly, a common experience among other archers. Just another reason that your shitty way of analyzing is shit and you should never have been allowed to touch item balance in this game. Fucking made the mod worse with every part that you have touched. Now everyone min-maxes based on whatever buffs tydeus added -thanks for being a complete arrogant asshat that "item balances" to favor himself.Nice, one statement about your inability to abstain from hyperbole and I get an entire paragraph of teenage angst in return.
Can we stop focussing so much on your experience Tydeus (from what I gather you're a good above average player), and the experience of very seasoned EU archers such as Algarn, Bagge, Stevee etc, and consider the average player?Only to a degree, can we. If the topic is about potential of the class, then it's no stretch to say that it's absolutely necessary, by definition of the word potential, to be looking at the "best". Whether you're the best player in the world or the worst, X pierce damage with 100 wpf and 7 PD to someone on a body shot with Y armor, the damage is going to be the exact same. Player skill is once again irrelevant. Where the average player needs to be considered the most, is in areas concerning upkeep, player usage, average class make-up desired vs current, and investment vs reward/ensuring reasonable learning curves; we have an ongoing conversation about what measures can be taken to make game mechanics more transparent and easier to understand, unfortunately since this is warband, not much can be done to simplify the mechanics appropriately for the layman.
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Only to a degree, can we. If the topic is about potential of the class, then it's no stretch to say that it's absolutely necessary, by definition of the word potential, to be looking at the "best". Whether you're the best player in the world or the worst, X pierce damage with 100 wpf and 7 PD to someone on a body shot with Y armor, the damage is going to be the exact same. Player skill is once again irrelevant. Where the average player needs to be considered the most, is in areas concerning upkeep, player usage, average class make-up desired vs current, and investment vs reward/ensuring reasonable learning curves; we have an ongoing conversation about what measures can be taken to make game mechanics more transparent and easier to understand, unfortunately since this is warband, not much can be done to simplify the mechanics appropriately for the layman.
I barely read this thread, so I'll just say this:
change the 2h stab
The issue with the drop in arrow count is that, unless you are a full 'loomed archer, you're going to run out pretty easily within just a couple minutes.So at least for the most part it's an issue with unloomed arrows, not necessarily all of them, to include fully loomed ones as well?
With 155 archery WPF on an 8PD build, unloomed Horn Bow, my reticle was nearly closed, which is too accurate for archery.I've actually spoken with Jacko (the M:BG dev who is also an xbow "lifer") several times on the topic of accuracy. As a game design objective, we both agree that rng should be minimized as much as possible. This is one of the few areas where I can say we have a clear objective worth trying to achieve (needs improved for xbows).
I had better aim with the Horn Bow than my +3 Arb with 175 wpf and no weight penalty. The sights were even tighter with a tatar bow.
The point, I'm assuming, was to reduce arrow count and increase accuracy in hopes you'd force more skill into the equation.
While that is one way to tackle it, and a reasonable way at face value, the arrow per quiver nerf combined with the weight effectively doubling to carry the same safe number as before, is just way too steep.
And besides, archers never had a problem hitting targets at range before. As Kesh said, arrows go pretty much right where they used to, despite the reticle holding much tighter.I can understand accuracy reductions to a degree, mostly for lower tier bows, but it still doesn't seem like you have anything to gain by doing so. If your build is pointlessly accurate, why not just spend the excess WM elsewhere? As things stand, players at least have the ability to choose the accuracy they desire most. Previously, you had pretty much one accuracy, whatever you could get with 6PD. Why revert things and decrease player choice?
If anything, reducing the accuracy back to where it used to be--as there was a chance you'd miss at medium range--is a fine way to mitigate an archer's damage output. Maybe make them a little bit wider, even.
It might not be obvious if you're looking at numbers, but my main was an archer since early 2011, and, despite Kesh being a little edgy, we've both been archers for a long time. Same as Happy.
The reason damage is fluctuating so much now (or at least it seems that way reading others' posts) is because the strength archers are now 12PD builds and the agility archers who want to be able to move have likely dropped some PD or stayed where they were pre-patch.Wait—why are people going 12PD instead of 10 (the highest effective amount possible). Did you mean 10? Is there a misconception about the PD req +4 rule that needs addressed? Is this a bug of sorts?
Changing bow damage isn't going to make it better or worse; it'll make it both better and worse.The main reason weight was increased is that we were aware that we were allowing archers with 3 and 4 PD to get significantly more athletics than what they had previously. This means, to keep kiting from getting out of hand, as a precautionary measure, increasing weight is the most sound option. As to the effectiveness of 0 slot weapons, certainly they're the worst in the game, without a doubt. On top of that, it's true that they're also the most restrictive on fighting styles, as well as the most difficult to use. That being said, it might be good to consider buffing them and making more 0 slot blunt weapons.
The reason I'm not pulling for a fix on bow damage is because I'm seeing the arrow count and arrow weight as the absolute biggest issues here.
Archers have limited slots. With a one slot bow and two quivers, you'll probably run out of arrows while being less effective than before.
With a two slot bow and two quivers, you'll be stuck using a 0 slot weapon and no ability to take an extra quiver to make up for the loss in arrow count.
With a one slot bow and three quivers, you'll be practically stuck to the ground with no defense at all unless you go high agility for athletics and trade your ability to actually be an effective ranged player.
I have also heard some complaints from cav players saying they're receiving too much damage from archers now as well, possibly due to the shift in higher PD builds.
In the end, I'm hoping you'll trust the archers who have been archers for years.To be honest with you, I become very hesitant when someone tells me "I've played x forever and have more experience with it than most anyone else". The only thing I care about, is how sound someone's argument is on its own merits, absent any grandfathering of supposed authority. Thankfully, both of the posts I had the pleasure of responding to with this post provided constructive, well thought out arguments and concerns.
Some archers will choose to be dicks regardless and stack athletics so they can be annoying, and some archers will top the score board, though they tend to be notoriously good and exceptions to the rule.
I don't even play EU or pay attention to Strat and I know who Algarn is. Dude is a legend.
As for the "adapt" part, I was going for "I'd like it if the players weren't always forced to adapt to the balancers, but instead, the balancers sometimes adapt to the community."
It's certainly true for the melee half of the community, I'm just not seeing much for the archer side at the moment.
But the topic isn't about the potential of the class is it? Those at the top of their game in their class are going to always be, subjectively, OP. Surely your argument about potential pierce damage etc can equally be applied to melee players.Certainly the topic of this thread isn't potential. What responses I gave in this thread using my own experience as evidence of a sort, was either in response to a different topic(posters, as in every thread, are often found straying slightly from the initial topic) or used to show how being restricted to my own perspective seems to be keeping me from understanding the ammo complaints.
I would be much happier with the changes that have been made if we could look at tweaking (reducing) the upkeep on bodkins (especially considering reductions in ammo and the cost of repairs on two stacks) and (maybe) bow, (definitely) rus, and longbow. Upkeep is really the only thing preventing me "adapting" to patch changes, because of the horrendous upkeep. As an average player I rarely get valour and will quite often spend a whole evening on a x1. In one session using the above gear I can lose 5k very easily. And yes, believe it or not upkeep, and source of gold is still an issue for some players, e.g. me.I fully understand upkeep is an issue for many players. Upkeep without a doubt needs looked at. San and I spoke about it shortly a few days ago and likely this will be a part of whatever the next set of changes are.
I can understand accuracy reductions to a degree, mostly for lower tier bows, but it still doesn't seem like you have anything to gain by doing so. If your build is pointlessly accurate, why not just spend the excess WM elsewhere?
The main reason weight was increased is that we were aware that we were allowing archers with 3 and 4 PD to get significantly more athletics than what they had previously. This means, to keep kiting from getting out of hand, as a precautionary measure, increasing weight is the most sound option.
I fully understand upkeep is an issue for many players. Upkeep without a doubt needs looked at. San and I spoke about it shortly a few days ago and likely this will be a part of whatever the next set of changes are.
I think I missed something as I'm not really sure what you're getting at with the pierce -> melee argument.
gain 3 levels - 3 more agility and 1 more athletics, same with every other player including the shielders chasing them down and the cavalry getting 1 more riding riding foot archers down. 1 count it 1 more athletics is not significantly more Exaggeration like in your previous posts bragging about how well you did as archer playing not to support your team but to maximize score simply to prove your already preconceived notions about archery, while ignoring all the maps you did poorly and how much your melee skills played a role in your performance.
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we should have san go on na1 with a shield and 1her go 20-2 every round and it will become very clear by your standards of determining item balance that 1hers damage and speed is way too high and should be cut by 25% across the board.
If ath could have been limited based on PD to prevent kiting why was it not done years ago? Would have saved a lot of grief/rage/expletives directed at the pewpew class
If the issue is kiting, cap the run speed. If a character has a point in PD, cap athletics at 6. Problem solved.
Don't destroy archery for everyone.
I guess re accuracy, I feel I've been indoctrinated to always take as much WPF as I can as archer (because of weight penalties etc etc. speed, accuracy etc). It's true this is something worth thinking about I guess.. but, having some extra WPF in 1h... meeeeh, I could take it or leave it personally. Spreading my WPF doesn't help my archery be better (i.e. deadlier).I didn't mean WPF so much as the WM skillpoints, although putting them in melee is certainly an option. Why not PS? Why not IF? Why not convert the skills to attributes to allow for higher athletics/PD?
Personally, I haven't really been paying attention to my speed differential post patch to notice what affect the change in weight has had. Has it been restored to what it was previous to the patch that reduced weight? If so, I guess I can live with that.It depends on how you changed your build. If you got 1 or more athletics, you're actually slightly faster than you were previously(see WaltF4's post in the link below).
Actually a good point, pretend it wasn't made by Kesh, lol.Except that it's an under-considered point that falls apart upon inspection. It's true that you only get 1 attribute and 1 skill point per level, but it's only 3 more levels to the "haves." For most characters, including the STFs, it's 5 levels. With 5 levels you can convert 2 skill points to 1 attribute allowing for 6 agi, and the 2nd athletics. Furthermore, the difference two athletics makes when you're stacked with weight can easily be the difference between being caught and being able to kite, as WaltF4 showed in his weight vs athletics comparisons here (http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/).
While I would agree that RNG is a terrible system, the reticle accurately represents the possible deviation of the arrow from the center point.If you can hit a character's head, you deserve to be rewarded for it. If your opponent is only 70-80% of the reticule, then a perfectly aimed shot will miss 20-30% of the time, simply due to RNG. Certainly seems like a bit much to me, but maybe we're thinking about difference distance shots.
I was able to accurately hit targets with 160 wpf pre-patch in 40-50 body armor despite the reticle being wider just because, even at longer ranges, an enemy's body would still take up 70-80% of that reticle.
Just playing around in-game right now with 155, getting headshots at range is much, much easier. At least before, players were less likely to get slapped with that headshot multiplier.
I can understand why you'd be wary of anyone using the "trust me because I've been playing for x amount of time," but seriously, I wouldn't trust myself balancing two-handers because I haven't played it nearly enough to know the mechanics as well as many other players.Sure, my point though, was that although it's likely that someone obtained his knowledge from his experience, I'm far less concerned with how he obtained it, than what the knowledge he can provide actually is.
There are quite a few of us who have/had been playing as archers for years and experienced each and every patch who would love to weigh in and would know the class much better than non-archers.
What I'm trying to get at is you've experienced one side of this extensively: the pointy side of the arrow.
There's a bunch of us who have been experiencing the other side extensively as well and should be trusted (somewhat, anyway) as reliable sources with the class.
What are your thoughts--or is it possible--to add a cap on athletics if a player has a point or more in the PD skill?We did the athletics cap thing before, actually. It was a dynamic cap that shik made and it lasted for about a day. The problem with it, is that it affects all builds, not just the agility focused ones and the effects are larger than simply adding weight which can more easily have its effect reduced(dropping your bow). It goes back to wanting to maintain a high degree of player choice and customization, something we saw many players concerned with due to the previous horse requirement increases.
This would work SO much better and solve the issue immediately.
While I don't think the "tone" of your posts are anywhere near conducive to your argument, Kesh, I do agree with this bit.No one said San needs to be ignored though. Both San and myself had discussed the ridiculous potency of his build. He did actually make a few proposals to nerf the Liuyedao, but they were ultimately shot down as it created poor balance with the scimitars and other 1h swords. Personally, I was hesitant to push the topic of San being nearly impossible for me to block, due to my high ping. Recently I had an average of about 75 ping to the NA servers. That to me, is a little high to be making changes to address the potency of a single build/class simply because a few people with higher then average ping have issues, not to mention few people seemed to be posting about his speed. Most posts on the topic of 1hers were either about the 1h thrust or how underpowered the class was.
I'm not sure I understand how players like San can be ignored, as, if class potential is something to be considered, shouldn't 1h weapon speed also be reduced?
Shit, with my ping, there's rarely enough reaction time (not on my end but due to my own ping) to get a block up.
Often, I'm already hit by the swing before the blade is even coming in my direction.
Yes Kesh, end your essay by calling someone else verbose. Classy.God, how did we get stuck with this verbose shithead fucking up this mod as head item balancer????(click to show/hide)
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To be honest with you, I become very hesitant when someone tells me "I've played x forever and have more experience with it than most anyone else". The only thing I care about, is how sound someone's argument is on its own merits, absent any grandfathering of supposed authority.
[...]So, instead people paying upkeep for high tier armors should pay for "not working protection" but being damaged by a tiny 4PD bow?
Take a look at the cost of running around with x2 stacks of bodkins and a longbow. That's why I complain about the ineffectiveness of low tier bows. I haemorrhage $$ using that (high end gear) all the time. But using low tier to save money is basically not worth it because of damage nerf. Compare cost / damage of low tier 2 hand vs low tier bows, and tell me that's balanced.
So, instead people paying upkeep for high tier armors should pay for "not working protection" but being damaged by a tiny 4PD bow?
When I play in peasant gear with a wooden stick, I don't expect to be able to do damage to a tin can. But you want the archery equivalent to kill? You wanna tell me that would be balanced?
So, instead people paying upkeep for high tier armors should pay for "not working protection" but being damaged by a tiny 4PD bow?
When I play in peasant gear with a wooden stick, I don't expect to be able to do damage to a tin can. But you want the archery equivalent to kill? You wanna tell me that would be balanced?
I would head-desk if I were stupid enough to use that crap but that's not the issue here. That would mean you're complaining about not having enough high-tier bows/models to play with.
If your Wooden stick will eat 2 slots, cost 4k gold, weigh 10 kg, but still doing less damage to opponent than practice dagger - will you call it balance?
I would head-desk if I were stupid enough to use that crap but that's not the issue here. That would mean you're complaining about not having enough high-tier bows/models to play with.
I would head-desk if I were stupid enough to use that crap but that's not the issue here. That would mean you're complaining about not having enough high-tier bows/models to play with.
[...]You can get kills with the spiked club, Arys does all the time. That thing with a bunch of PS behind it will rip shit up. I was using the light spied club on the Aust server with 1wpf and 7PS and it was tearing heads off left and right. The two handed axe is the same, totally usable and deadly weapon. The scythe, that thing is just fucked up in the right hands Big Bird used to be able to dominate the server with that fucking thing.Pretty sure there are still archers with the smaller bows, putting arrows in heads left and right, killing people with it. But only the right targets. I can tell you from experience that you won't "rip shit up" with an Elder's Spiked Club fighting a strength whoring tin can. Takes ages...
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I am pretty sure head shots do damage, so do body shots on low armor targets, I guess. Don't really know and I don't really care cuz I am biased. But if you can, it's hardly useless. I wouldn't even think once that my trusty cudgel is useless.
But nobody seems to pick up my analogy with the wooden stick/cudgel.
If you wanna do lots of damage, you pick up a badass long and expensive sword and not the "cheap" stuff (in comparison to the long badass expensive sword).
Why exactly should it be different for bows?
If you wanna do lots of damage, take the expensive stuff.
And since it's kinda established that too many archers kill off a server population, generally a way higher upkeep to keep the archer ratio in check seems a proper way to do that.
Oh, and I am still waiting on an explanation why exactly "only" NA is complaining in here and EU doesn't (for the most part).
Pretty sure there are still archers with the smaller bows, putting arrows in heads left and right, killing people with it. But only the right targets. I can tell you from experience that you won't "rip shit up" with an Elder's Spiked Club fighting a strength whoring tin can. Takes ages...
So, instead people paying upkeep for high tier armors should pay for "not working protection" but being damaged by a tiny 4PD bow?
When I play in peasant gear with a wooden stick, I don't expect to be able to do damage to a tin can. But you want the archery equivalent to kill? You wanna tell me that would be balanced?
Pretty sure there are still archers with the smaller bows, putting arrows in heads left and right, killing people with it. But only the right targets. I can tell you from experience that you won't "rip shit up" with an Elder's Spiked Club fighting a strength whoring tin can. Takes ages...
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I still want damages back.So you can go 28:3 per map instead of 23:3? :?
So you can go 28:3 per map instead of 23:3? :?
too much accuracy has been given and I got pin point accuracy with 10 PD and heavy stuff.So if you have more WPF than you need in archery, why not, I don't know, put the points into something more useful to you? If you're getting spammed, you could lower your archery wpf by 15 and get 80-100 1h wpf. We might give back 1 more damage, but at the moment, it looks like we're going to keep archery focused around high accuracy (we'll likely be increasing it even further with a small damage increase as well).
1) you can't go hybrid archer easily : you'll trade the bit of damage of your bow, and will end up spammed by agi whores, and even STR whores. Don't forget you can't use anymore a two handed and a 1 slot bow, since you're going to deal no damage, and will have only 14 arrows.
3) Increasing the weight to 10 per +3 arrow bag while removing 5 arrows to each means you have to take two bags, and wear 20kg on your back. You won't be able to escape in any situation, except if you have 8 athl and no PD or you drop your bow (which, in both cases, ends up with you dead).
While I do think it's nice to say "if you can hit their head, you should be able to," I don't think that's a totally honest answer.Native archers have very high projectile speed to go with their pinpoint accuracy, not to mention high damage (especially considering native soak/reduce values.)
If that were the case, make ranged pinpoint accurate across the board.
As a few of us have said, archers were never the "snipers" in this mod, and we all know just how well Native's approach to sniper accurate archery is.
I have recently realized that we are in a splendid position to be doing this, as we have just changed the most important requirement for it to work effectively. The general proposal in short? Raise accuracy on nearly all bows by a fair bit, so that anything over 9 WM is completely useless and results in zero accuracy increase (aside from, perhaps, the Long Bow). Why do this? Because we already gave archery the ability (perhaps necessity) of becoming more str focused. This will automatically reduce the amount of kiting, as well as the ability to do so, that agility archers have.
The past few days I have concluded that with respect to damage, any bow that has an abundance of accuracy is significantly better off being used with reduced wpf and higher PD. Any bow that already has good damage, also now has increased accuracy such that only using the minimum, with perhaps the exception of the Bow, is on the cusp of not gaining anything by using 27+ agi. Meaning that, with the increased athletics on the server (not everyone, but both extremes have increased for melee), kiting would seem to be less of a worry for higher PD requirement bows.
Furthermore, with wpf affecting damage as it does, stacking wpf atm (and especially before this patch) was too effective, thanks to the multifaceted benefits. This change necessarily reduces the status quo making WM and WPF less of a necessity for Archers and thanks to the necessary skill point sink of PD, unlike with crossbows, you don't have to worry quite so much about a flood of hybrid archers as you would with crossbows were you to make this change there (although there's certainly room for increasing accuracy for crossbows).
To put what happened to archery with this most recent patch into a different perspective: before, you were most likely to see all archery builds having 3-6 (and maybe a 7pd build here and there); post patch what you're more likely to see in two/three weeks time, is 5-10 pd builds, but without the risk of damage values getting out of hand, as well as their ability to maintain decent similar accuracy.
What does this change mean for archers? Hybrids will be able to spare more wpf for their melee stats. Hybrids will have access to higher amounts of PS. Hybrids will be able to wear more armor. Dedicated archers will have access to higher degrees of accuracy than previously allowed. The potential is there to reduce quiver weights significantly for increased effectiveness to all archers.
I have sometimes the feeling to be killing only the wounded and the unaware players on the battlefields (or also the retards who come to me, and do not even try to dodge).
1) you can't go hybrid archer easily : you'll trade the bit of damage of your bow, and will end up spammed by agi whores, and even STR whores. Don't forget you can't use anymore a two handed and a 1 slot bow, since you're going to deal no damage, and will have only 14 arrows.
2) Having lower amount of damage, and also a lower amount of arrows means what does it means : you'll have to hit more your target to make it die, especially with 9PD and less, but you won't have a lot of ammo for that. Either they are going to dodge your shots with 8 ATHL or they are going to stack your arrows in a ridiculous way in a huge plate, catch you, and start the spam.
3) Increasing the weight to 10 per +3 arrow bag while removing 5 arrows to each means you have to take two bags, and wear 20kg on your back. You won't be able to escape in any situation, except if you have 8 athl and no PD or you drop your bow (which, in both cases, ends up with you dead).
To sum up : give 2 damages back, some ammo, and we're fine. Archery won't be a easy class, but won't be impossible to play.
To sum up : give 2 damages back, some ammo, and we're fine. Archery won't be a easy class, but won't be impossible to play.
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< all the things >
To sum up : give 2 damages back, some ammo, and we're fine. Archery won't be a easy class, but won't be impossible to play.
Cav kills the 2-3 archer players that are still left in existence on NA. And now cav has to deal with the insanely heavily armed pike ridden one shot kills your horse infantry mobs, that archers would have otherwise at least watered down by now...but they haven't...because they are nerfed to shit.(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
dont be sad, here , i drew u a picture of walrus :)(click to show/hide)
Why not try to acknowledge the issues and complaints and work towards a solution or a compromise?
Are you seriously just pissed off 24 hours a day?(click to show/hide)
Are you seriously just pissed off 24 hours a day?
We did nothing when he fucked up 1h stab making it the new meta...causing many great, fun players in community to quitUnfortunately for all of us: you're still here :cry:
We did nothing when he fucked up polearm animations making them ridiculously OP... causing many great, fun players in community to quit (thanks to other devs for reverting it this patch and fixing that idiot's mistakes)
We did nothing when he buffed agility excessively making everyone an agility whore (his favorite way of playing)... causing many great, fun players in community to quit
We did nothing when he killed horse archery beyond all repair ... causing many great, fun players in community to quit
Now that he is killing archery to favor his ugly, boring way of playing it with hyper accuracy vastly reducing real skill it is too late because all the great fun players are gone playing archeage, cs:go, countless other games rather than have to deal with this complete incompetent who only changes things for himself and doesn't consider the community at all in his decision-making.
Tydeus = that shithead from Germany
Because nobody in the archer community ever did acknowledge the issues and complaints and work towards a solution or a compromise.
I don't see why I should, now that most problems were fixed. I think the current state of ranged weapons is a huge step forward, and is a much better compromise than the previous one.
I will continue telling you to get a shield lol because this is a valid argument according to your standards.
Seriously though. I've played this mod now for a couple years I think (honestly, I don't exactly remember when this hazy dream began) but archery has always been an annoying threat. Well, of course it is an annoying threat to have people shooting at you from a distance. I just assume that if I have no shield and I just go running after archers I am probably going to die. That's what I think would happen in a realistic scenario.
I didn't see any of you trying to compromise when your class dominated, so arguing that I should "do it for teamwork" is really hilarious, when obviously none of you care about teamwork more than I do.
When I first started playing cRPG in early 2011, archery was pretty scary.
Archers could really tear shit up, and they were nerfed accordingly into more of a support role.
If enemies were out in the open, I'd shoot for the chest or head in my best effort to get a kill, but when teammates were working on taking someone down, I'd aim strictly for the legs.
If I hit, it'd stun the enemy for a moment, just long enough for someone to get a hit in. If I missed and hit a teammate, I'd do less damage than an accidental TK headshot.
That support role worked really well for me, and I'm assuming it did with other archers and assisted melee teammates too.
We, as archers, were also able to help rid the match of cavalry, as well. Horse archers take first priority.
This lessened the stress put on melee infantry as they had less couched lances bearing down on them.
Actually read the posts in the thread before posting.
Some of us are agreeing with you. Others are on the fence. Some are also disagreeing with you.
The thread would not be 8 pages long if there weren't valuable discussion, complaints, worries, and praise being brought up.
Yes, it is a valid argument.
If you do not have a shield or wander into wide open fields, you will immediately become a target for any ranged on the server.
Granted, now that 2h and polearms dominate, I don't see particularly much love from the melee side trying to compromise with the ranged side.
For instance, look at your post.
And again (btw, this was the OP, so I'm not sure how you missed it?):
kafein is always anti-ranged without any kind of logical argument
"beta tester" is a laugh
prob explains all the broken models
I think the general consensus is that archers with lower tier bows feel weak and strength archers deal okayish-good damage and could be better. My question is what role do archers want low PD archers (4-6) to have against infantry?
I think there is an anti-kiting method that gives agi archers mediocre damage, high firing speed, good ammo, and high weight. This means largely reverting a good portion of the damage decrease on low tier bows and giving some ammo back so the high PD bows have little fear of running out with their slower draw speed. Over the past 2 years or so, I think it worked okay but many archers seemed to be unsatisfied with this and wanted lighter weight on their arrows. It seems like this will be even more difficult with the potential for builds to reach even greater extremes than before.
Another method is to allow mobility for archers with low arrow weight where agility archers have somewhat limited resources with less damage and high firing speed, while strength archers can make use of even those limited resources. This requires a somewhat low ammo capacity so players that are more mobile can't kite since they'll need to make shots count and reposition themselves occasionally to scavenge more ammo. The ammo count still needs to be good enough for the strength-oriented archers aren't hurt too much by it. I think the current ammo at +3 fits the bill, and would only support a difference in ammo between +0 and +3 with these changes. Damage will still be increased, but probably not as much as the previous paragraph concerning the low tier bows since the weight will decrease. Increased headshot damage may be great alternative over bow damage where the latter will mess with the accuracy again.
The biggest issue with the above is that they'll largely be safe against most other classes except for other ranged when playing correctly. Missile speed for the low tier bows may need to be drastically decreased to increase risk by having to approach the fray a little more.
I think kiting archers were a problem in the past since:
-The kiters were much higher in level
-Dealt some of the best damages for their class, especially with the wpf bug and armor penetration
-No flags that prevented delaying/kiting playstyles (large reason for the recent weight reductions, but the first point especially remained a large problem until now)
Now is as good a time as any to be a little more experimental since builds are not as set in stone.
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Either way, even if things look good on paper, it's only when the changes hit that people are going to have the truest opinion.
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Make all archery 1 hit kill, but you have to enter a captcha everytime you want to shoot. If you enter it wrong, you die.
I think the general consensus is that archers with lower tier bows feel weak and strength archers deal okayish-good damage and could be better. My question is what role do archers want low PD archers (4-6) to have against infantry?(click to show/hide)
I think kiting archers were a problem in the past since:
-The kiters were much higher in level
-Dealt some of the best damages for their class, especially with the wpf bug and armor penetration
-No flags that prevented delaying/kiting playstyles (large reason for the recent weight reductions, but the first point especially remained a large problem until now)
Now is as good a time as any to be a little more experimental since builds are not as set in stone.
I have an issue with the damage cap, but it's probably easiest to convince Tydeus, or I'll have to make a long-winded thread for others to vote on which will take a while.I'm already convinced it needs raised, just lazy.
I'm already convinced it needs raised, just lazy.
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7PD 170WPF MW tatar bow + MW tatar arrow 1 headshot on enemy w 5 IF and low-tier nord-helm less than 20% damage.
I'd just remove it because given the horse nerf it's really hard to stay alive against the the pure cav without 9 riding. You get trampled real bad, so getting above 18str and being able to move quickly and shoot straight is a serious mission.
You guys still have active community in Oz?