21-14... high level build is OP:shock:
If you think IF isn't useful you have no idea what you are talking about. Which is understandable. I can gather you play the long axe often? No need for a build even remotely competitive when using that, you'll dominate anyway. Fact is with a good armor choice, investing in more IF instead of another agi tier is going to make you survive usually between 2 and 6 more hits. Agi is never going to make that much of a difference. The combination of high armor reduce and IF investment easily transforms someone into a damage sponge with only marginally lower acceleration, speed and wpf than a build that converted those IF skills into agi. Overall, IF is a much better skill than shield skill or riding as it remains fully effective under all circumstances and doesn't stop being effective above a certain item difficulty threshold.
The big problem that I find with agi based builds is that they break animations for me at 150-170+ wpf. Perhaps lowering the speed of everything(arrow speed, movement speed, wpf, weapon speed) at a particular ratio and then increasing the server speed? Other than that all you can do is buff IF ALOT so people actually use it(I haven't had it for 2 years) or buffing PS so higher str builds hit harder then the agi builds with their huge wpf damage enhancement.
I stopped reading your BS at the bolded text. I mean, are we talking full +3 milanese tincan vs level 1 peasant?
I also think part of the solution to balancing agi-str (if they are indeed not balanced) is to increase the STR requirement on armors so that people will no longer be able to be tanky AND agile.
I also think part of the solution to balancing agi-str (if they are indeed not balanced) is to increase the STR requirement on armors so that people will no longer be able to be tanky AND agile.
With 6PS, 184 effective wpf and 33c it's not out of the ordinary to hit those guys more than 10 times before they die.
I don't know what game you are playing, but I never see that happen. I can take up to 5 hits if I'm lucky wearing my 72 body, 60 leg, 53 head, it rarely go beyond that that even if I'm fighting a one hander or anything other than peasant gear really. The build I use is 25/15 with 8 if and I usually die in 2-4 fours hits, 4 being pretty uncommon even then with my higher tier armour, and I rarely see otehr people fairing that much better. The fact that their are people in EU who are bullet proof makes me think something fishy is going on over there.
Well it's my experience as someone wearing 70 body armor, with 24 STR and only 3IF. Some guys with very powerful weapons still hurt badly, but I can laugh at 1h bar the very powerful ones or if the other guy is stacking 10 PS. One of the consequences of the general drift towards AGI has been that tank builds got even more tankish due to lower damage.
there were still people like Allers and Tretter which went full strength, but only put points into powerstrike. The reason for this is that for each PS you essentially get 3 health points... so why bother wasting skill points on 2 extra hp when you could put them all into the more important skill?
One of the consequences of the general drift towards AGI has been that tank builds got even more tankish due to lower damage.
Pretty much every (serious) build I make has ironflesh. Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that. Without IF you wouldn't get the chance to do that.
Pretty much every (level 30) build I make has minimal, if any, ironflesh. Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that, all while thinking "Good thing I didn't invest in more IF, since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless."
Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that, all while thinking "Good thing I didn't invest in more IF, since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless."
The big problem that I find with agi based builds is that they break animations for me at 150-170+ wpf. Perhaps lowering the speed of everything(arrow speed, movement speed, wpf, weapon speed) at a particular ratio and then increasing the server speed? Other than that all you can do is buff IF ALOT so people actually use it(I haven't had it for 2 years) or buffing PS so higher str builds hit harder then the agi builds with their huge wpf damage enhancement.
This is largely a frame rate issue
The "swing animation skipping frames" thing that mostly (only?) happens with polearms can't be a framerate thing, because I have 144 fps (lightboost LCD with strobing, so that is "realized" fps, not just what the video card is rendering) and I see it every time an agility polearmer swings a fast weapon. It definitively gets worse as my ping increases though, so I think it's a server-client sync issue. Extreme agility builds with 2h and 1h (i.e. you and San, respectively) just render "fast" animations, but they are clearly showing all the frames still. Polearm right swings and overheads just skip right from ready position to a hit.
I'm learning a lot about how many mechanics scale with ping, since my ISP has decided to slowly fluctuate between 38ms and 300ms.
In a one on one situation, IF is great because it allows you to take hits (on purpose) and use that to hit back in situations where you're feeling impatient or need to get rid of the enemy quickly.
I think that a good 70wpf should be frontloaded at the start.
Clearly IF is the one carrying your tankiness.
I'm simply using that example to show that "since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless." isn't something one says often when using a good build with good equipment.
This is largely a frame rate issue, though it seems the server/your PC just gives up every now and then and you'll see an insta-swing (or stab) from just about any melee weapon.
this is not a framerate issue, I am at constant 120 fps. It is also not a connection issue because I am always 23-27 ping. I rarely get lag and when I do it is just constant EU ping for hours. I usually play a single player game in that scenario.
Also I think your not understanding what I'm saying in terms of breaking animations. I'm talking about when the high wpf people double swing you and the second hit lands right when they release it. I know there is a difference between animations breaking and fast weapons. You and San rarely break animations and just swing fast. Krosis, spiritus, and on a rare occasion jona breaks them in the way I'm talking. It is also more noticeable if you have a character with lower WPF.
The difference between 6 IF and no IF is the difference between getting 7-1 a map and 7-3 a map. Minor, sure, but it could be the difference between getting your team a multiplier or not. IF is invaluable against ranged weapons and teamhits, when combined with some armor.
jona explained this well but might I add that getting 1 more ath means getting to an archer in 1 or 2 less shots, helps you dodge better etc. And one more power strike kills an enemy instead of black barring them and may make you survive?
My argument is that HP are valuable because they provide very real tankiness and allow surviving through a consequent number of errors, something Jona disagrees with. I'm simply using that example to show that "since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless." isn't something one says often when using a good build with good equipment.
But what do I know, maybe half the playerbase in NA consists of morningstars and arbalests.
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You could say the same about any skill I guess. Power Strike e.g. With +3 Claymore you're able to kill almost everyone in 3 hits I think, no matter if you have 6 or 8 PS, so what, PS is useless? :wink:
The difference between 6 and 8 PS is not a 6 skill point difference.
It's 7Well no, it's 14 (assuming you have 18 str in case of 6 PS and 24 str in case of 8 PS).
The difference between 6 and 8 PS is not a 6 skill point difference.Which kinda proves Falkas point since if the difference of whole 6 attribute and 2 skill points of Power strike doesn't result in much damage difference, there's even less point in putting it into PS.
Can't say agi is definitely OP, but I wouldn't mind to see a slight damage nerf, either by removing the damage bonus from WPF or reducing the speed bonus damage for all classes by like 10-15%.
Well no, it's 14 (assuming you have 18 str in case of 6 PS and 24 str in case of 8 PS).
Which kinda proves Falkas point since if the difference of whole 6 attribute and 2 skill points of Power strike doesn't result in much damage difference, there's even less point in putting it into PS.
What? I've never gotten a swing in after getting hit, given the stun duration.
Also, I've never seen this insta-swing that's being discussed. Which makes me agree that it's likely a connection issue. I've got a 20-30 ping pretty much all the time. Maybe I should go play EU for a while and see if I can see it there.
IF is the least useful skill because it adds nothing to your ability to do damage. [...]Ofc it does. You're allowed to miss more blocks, you live longer, you have the chance to do more damage (over time).
b-but this also would nerf my not-as-effective gimmick of stacking STR without IF so I can gain obscene amounts of PS.
pls no
It's not a gimmick, because this is what everyone does, and the purpose of the thread is to end the practice.
Just like the wpf patch ended the practice of stacking ridiculous str/agi while ignoring WM, something should be done to encourage people to choose between survivability or damage output, rather that getting both just by putting points in strength and ignoring IF. There are 24/24 guys running around fast as fvck in heavy armor that still take 10+ hits to kill. Make them give up 3 str or agi if they still want to be tanky.
There are 24/24 guys running around fast as fvck in heavy armor that still take 10+ hits to kill. Make them give up 3 str or agi if they still want to be tanky.Rather than focusing on the fact that it's an extremely high level build, you choose to complain about one small facet of such? If you converted all your points, you'd be able to reach 24/24 with 4 skill points to split between WM and IF by level 35, at 36 you have 7 and at 37 you have 10. It's not the build, it's the character level. Furthermore, the strength of a single player's 24/24 build, even when forsaking IF, says nothing about the viability of the str and agi attributes.
It's probably more the armor/experienced use of speed malus
AFAIK, there's no direct way to grab the speed bonus value on hit from the module system/WSE.
It's pierce attacks that are the easiest to abuse speed bonus with, so this would accomplish the same thing.What? Do you mean thrusts? The Great Maul actually scales the best with speed bonus, in that the same speed bonus % results in a larger effective increase in damage than with any other weapon, and this remains true for most high damage blunt weapons.
14 hp not as good as a single point of athletics? What? Baffling. I think people are just grossly oversimplifying the complex relations between character builds, armor, weapons and terrain. Thus making the ridiculous conclusions like 1 athletics > 14 hp, inevitable. A single point in athletics, especially after weight penalties from armor, is rather minor, yet 14 hp can easily allow one to sustain an extra full damage hit. Additionally, athletics doesn't simply reduce damage a player takes. In reality, it expands both the lows and the highs that a player can receive.
14 hp not as good as a single point of athletics? What?
Let's put it this way, would you rather have X HP with mail tier armor or X HP+14 with kuyak tier armor? Your the same exact thing in terms of speed and it generally takes as many hits or more depending on thbsituation and opponents. It also allows you to invest 1 point in wm without the trouble of the agility points which is nothing to ignore either.Yea but on the flip side, you can use that argument just as easily to say you can boost PS.
people vastly underestimate what 14 HP actually means in reality, it's often way more than just 1 more hit if you are getting hit with low speed bonus attacks which you should be in most cases. even in the worst cases 1 extra hit is HUGE, there is no penalty in this game for being on low HP other than the obvious fact you are closer to dying, but if you get blackbarred you can still fight on exactly the same as if you were at full HP. I end rounds with almost no health left all the time, mostly from tanking ranged hits, what it provides is way better than being slightly faster in those cases.
Why is it that so many NA players claim that 33% more HP doesn't even make them survive one more hit? You don't have full +3 armor over there? Or everybody is a 10PS great maul bulldozer ?I haven't played in about two months, but unless NA has changed something, they use a fair bit less armor than EU does, on average.
Why is it that so many NA players claim that 33% more HP doesn't even make them survive one more hit? You don't have full +3 armor over there? Or everybody is a 10PS great maul bulldozer ?
Why is it that so many NA players claim that 33% more HP doesn't even make them survive one more hit? You don't have full +3 armor over there? Or everybody is a 10PS great maul bulldozer ?
High armor is a rarity.
Toning down melee speed bonus significantly has its risks as well --
Stabs while backpedalling would suddenly deal much more damage.
Actually, backpedalling attacks in general would do a lot more damage, stabs would just be the most effected.
Melee cav would probably become a bit shitty though.
Speed bonuses are easily changed in the server settings file in the module folder (Module.ini? I'm not on my desktop.), it's right there along with armor soak values, flinching from damage thresholds, which brf files to load, etc.
You'd need to be 33 or 36 str for a 33% HP increase, it's more likely that the bonus will be between 20.00-27.11%.
3 STR : 38 base (+2 from IF = 40, 5.26% HP increase from investment)
6 STR : 41 base (+4 from IF = 45, 10.25% HP increase from investment)
9 STR : 44 base (+6 from IF = 50, 13.63% HP increase from investment)
12 STR: 47 base (+8 from IF = 55, 17.02% HP increase from investment)
15 STR: 50 base (+10 from IF = 60, 20.00% HP increase from investment)
18 STR: 53 base (+12 from IF = 65, 22.64% HP increase from investment)
21 STR: 56 base (+14 from IF = 70, 25.00% HP increase from investment)
24 STR: 59 base (+16 from IF = 75, 27.11% HP increase from investment)
27 STR: 62 base (+18 from IF = 80, 29.03% HP increase from investment)
30 STR: 65 base (+20 from IF = 85, 30.76% HP increase from investment)
33 STR: 68 base (+22 from IF = 90, 32.35% HP increase from investment)
36 STR: 71 base (+24 from IF = 95, 33.80% HP increase from investment)
I did notice that I need more swings to take people down in EU1, but I always just thought it was a bad timing due to latency thing, I guess the average armor level might be higher in EU1. NA1 also tends to be fairly heavy on 45+ cut weapons and/or pierce/blunt weapons, I didn't really pay attention to the melee weapons on EU1, was distracted by the greater volumes of ranged.
45-49c weapons deal over 20 damage with a bad hold and zero speed bonus with 21/21 vs 65 armor. Something like a +3 morningstar/+3 bec doesn't even need a hold or speed bonus to do 20+ most of the time. Chances are there are a lot of times where people take a crapload of overkill on the last strike, and the extra HP will do nothing after the first extra hit.
In NA1, I'd say anything above Rus Scale/Pronoia could probably be considered unusually heavy, to the point where whenever I see an armor with plate in the name I immediately assume it's one of maybe ~4 people (leman, dutchydave, oralroberts, firebus), whenever I see transitional armor I immediately assume it's King_James_of_Acre, and whenever I see black armor I assume it's Devilize or his clone buddy.
Generally I only need 4-5 non-held, non-glancing strikes max to take down the heaviest armored people on NA1 with a +3 Liuyedao (6 PS, 173 effective WPF) when I aim at the feet/head, less hits if I bother to use holds or if I decide to use a steel pick instead.
I deal around ~15 damage on leg strikes vs +3 trans + +3 shynbaulds (65 armor total) after suboptimal but positive speed bonuses (8 ath strafes) + really badly timed holds. On a properly held head strike with a good speed bonus I'll easily deal way past 20-25++ damage on ~55 head armors.
With a +3 steel pick I do ~18-20+ damage with a badly held strike and zero speed bonus on a leg swing vs the armor above, haven't tested head hits.
These aren't very high numbers since 1h tends to deal much less damage than 2h/polearms, but they're high enough that they create many instances where extra HP from IF just falls into uselessly soaking up overkill damage after the first extra hit survived.
It's worse when you start looking at the damage on +3 morningstars/45c+ weapons/+3 bec/+3 long spiked club/strong pole stabs/couches/anything with a horseback speed bonus + headshot on a non-bumped target, it's not unusual to see something like 70++ effective damage using a +3 morningstar to the face vs the heaviest helmets from horseback while riding below 75% max speed on the armored horses.
Couches are even worse in that regard, someone with 0 ps/1 wpf/6 riding can easily do upwards of 80+ effective damage with an unloomed jousting lance and an unloomed courser on a chest hit on the heaviest possible loomed body armor + gloves without going anywhere near full speed.
I guess IF could help people when I'm using a club or a practice sword tobe incredibly greedy with upkeepgive myself a challenge, so I guess there's that.
NA armor situation has kind of become a race to the bottom. Before the WM buff, everyone was 27/15 or similar and wearing at least 14kg body armor (Heavy Kuyak+). With that patch, they all respecced to 21/21 or similar. Then they got fed up losing to 18/27 polearmers where they still get 2-shot while being s-keyed and spammed, so they spec even more agility themselves and wear lighter armor so they can keep up. So now most melee are in <12kg body armor, 16 kg at the most.
I find that agi polearmers (most of NA melee now) 2-shot me regardless of what armor I wear (up to 65+), so I've been going progressively lighter myself.
I don't think the original M&B devs had 9 ath, 200 wpf, 36p +3 awlpikes in mind when the speed bonus formula was created. Tone down speed bonus, and you'll find that strength and IF will make a comeback.
If you get hit by high speed bonus attacks it's almost always your own fault for having poor footwork.
I have 0 idea how anybody can complain about people using light armour and being agility builds..
CRPG community's idea of 'light' armour is generally around 60 body armour
Before, the weight threshold before wpf penalty was 10. Now it's the max between Strength / 3 and IF * 2, with a minimum of 6. It's a buff for ranged and melee strength-builds. Greater penalties for gloves, too.
Before, the weight threshold before wpf penalty was 10. Now it's the max between Strength / 3 and IF * 2, with a minimum of 6. It's a buff for ranged and melee strength-builds. Greater penalties for gloves, too.
14 hp not as good as a single point of athletics?definitely
IF is great in a duel setting
Still rather say no to IF and pump the skill points into a build with more agi/athletics. I don't even think PS is worth taking str for compared to agi still. That movement speed is such a huge bonus in a melee fight, and more WM gives you more WPF than some IF which doesn't really help much imo
and more WM gives you more WPF than some IF which doesn't really help much imoThat depends 100% on how much armor you use, nothing else.
The IF change is welcome and definitely adds an interesting mechanic. However, I notice that when wearing medium armor, you don't see any wpf advantage from IF until you exceed 3-4 points in the skill. This is unfortunate, since most people are now lvl 37 and that level doesn't allow "complete" builds, so you end up with "leftover" points. However, IF isn't a great option for leftover points, since you don't get the wpf benefit unless you are nearly maxing it.
I wish the wpf benefit could be linear with IF skill, instead of loaded to the last few points as you max IF. This would encourage greater build variety, as the IF skill is now very "all or nothing". The strength component of the wpf penalty reduction formula is nearly insignificant; I'd rather see it be a simple linear function of IF.
I think the minimum threshold was lowered from 10 to 6, and the threshold is now calculated by IF*2. Therefore having 3 IF changes nothing, since it is equal to 6, the automatic minimum. Also I agree with you about 37 not allowing "complete" builds and this kind of once again indirectly allows for IF to be the "leftover point dumpster." I used to have 6 IF, but now I only have 4 IF since I wanted to keep my 4 shield skill.
I might go back and forth between 18/25 with maxed skills (current) and 21/24 with 4 IF and 5 shield. I exchanged for that black/red Rus Scale for purely aesthetic reasons, which is really fat so I'm probably stuck on maxed IF builds. Hope siege gets populated again; siege is kind to fat shielders, unlike battle.
Removing the min. 6 and strength factors would hurt hybrids and agi builds even more. No IF would mean that you can't wear armor without a penalty. Because of the exponential scale (that's needed for plate), medium armor would be like wearing plate for those that don't use IF. It's also easier to scale the IF function since strength works separately.
You might have wanted to wait until the new heraldic armors you've had your eyes on were added to use up your heirloom exchange. Unless you like the new rus scale better than even those, of course. Cuz they are on their way... just a little delayed.
If I were you, I would go 21-24 or 24-21 as a shielder, without a doubt. 6PS can barely cut it for me when using 1handers. I know that you like to max out your shield skill, however I never went past 5, and I am currently plenty happy with only 4.
You might have wanted to wait until the new heraldic armors you've had your eyes on were added to use up your heirloom exchange. Unless you like the new rus scale better than even those, of course. Cuz they are on their way... just a little delayed.
If I were you, I would go 21-24 or 24-21 as a shielder, without a doubt. 6PS can barely cut it for me when using 1handers. I know that you like to max out your shield skill, however I never went past 5, and I am currently plenty happy with only 4.
You might have wanted to wait until the new heraldic armors you've had your eyes on were added to use up your heirloom exchange.Pardon me for interfering , what heraldic armors are you talking about ?
Pardon me for interfering , what heraldic armors are you talking about ?
if here is also allowed to speak about personal experience, I played long enough on 21/21 777 and I can say that with medium or a bit heavier armor its rly pretty tanky, but when someone like Knitler hits you in the head removing more then half hp and you do realize that next one will be the last - u dont give shit about 1 or 2 or even 3 IF and thinking about 1 more in shields or wm to have time to block it. on the other hand, playing an inf with 6 or 7 athletics, personally for me its 2 completely different games , with 7 im much more dangerous... which consequently allows me to be more survivable^^
therefore I support if's buff, especially expense of agi
(sry about my eng).
Linearized about balanced builds/medium armor, the first 3-4 IF do nothing and the last 3-4 IF give you about ~4wpf each. I'm sure there is some way to make it so each IF pt gives about ~2wpf while not screwing hybrids and agi builds.
Probably Str/3 + IF