cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Blackbow on September 08, 2014, 06:09:03 pm

Title: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 08, 2014, 06:09:03 pm
better explaination from blindguy :

Quote from: BlindGuy on September 08, 2014, 06:54:00 pm
A good trick people are doing is.. well, there's two variations:

No shield: Polearmers or 2handers (this one works best with poles) block your attack, then instead of attacking you they press Sheath+Nudge+Nextweapon, so they still have block button held: this means you get nudged for long period (unarmed blocking nudge) and they can hit you without your being able to block.

With shield: Similar to last one but simpler to do, requires more skills invested: 2hander has shield out, closes with enemy, does neutral nudge as they press next weapon, and can instantly attack, while victim is still stunned.

If both of these animation breaking, ugly, and easy to do unblockable attacks were intended, then good, but since the animations all get chopped to shit and the result is fugly, I dont believe either of these was intended.


since the last nudge buff (decreased nudge cooldown ) who was rly a bad idea coz it was sure some people where going to abuse of it ... and glitch a lot.

some of them are able to nudge you then pass through you to slash your back when u are still in the nudge animation.

others are able to nudge then slash you from front when u are still in nudge animation.

it's fucking more op than olds kick and totaly ridiculous.
i talk about the nudge when the shield is not up.

so please fix this shit because fight some shielders mean
geting nudge then slashed then nudged then slashed then nudged then slashed ... without having time to do nothing
if you are low level or have a build not agi oriented u just get spamed and cant do nothing ...

an other request is about removing possibility for team mate to nudge a ranged who bent bow, xbow or throwing stuff ...
enemies barely never use it and only team mate use it against their one team mate
it's fucking boring as ranged and somethimes can cause your death just because your team mate want troll or have fun on you...
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 08, 2014, 06:22:33 pm
NM, I thought this thread was about nudge phasing abuse, not trolling ranged.  Please continue trolling ranged.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 08, 2014, 06:26:11 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on September 08, 2014, 06:22:46 pm
Isn't that what it's for?

I once nudge-grounded an enemy archer i got behind because it was funny rather than 1-shot him like a scumbag... he rolled instantly and schooled me with 1hand spam :/ I vowed never again (unless teammate).

for sure when it's against enemies there is no problem. but it's comming all the time from your team mates and generaly put the ranged in bad situation.
so let enemies nudge ranged and put them down : ok
let team mate nudge their ranged : not ok
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Algarn on September 08, 2014, 06:27:55 pm
Neutral shield bash is one of the best animations I have ever seen. You can't miss it, you go through the ennemy, get behind him at the end of the animation, and start the spam. It works even better on archers, since they got low armors generally, and only a short sword to defend themselves (talking from personal melee experience).
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 08, 2014, 06:29:17 pm
Quote from: MURDERTRON on September 08, 2014, 06:22:33 pm
NM, I thought this thread was about nudge phasing abuse, not trolling ranged.  Please continue trolling ranged.

it's mainly about the shield nudge abuse, i guess it's the priority, something have to be done...
then i also use this thread to speak about an other problem concerning nudges nothing else...
now stay constructive about the problem or leave this thread.
thx
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 08, 2014, 06:37:01 pm
The phasing through, and hitting from inside, which is very confusing and hard to block is a big issue and should be fixed.  Throwing ranged on the ground, isn't.  They could just kick you instead, so you'd be solving nothing as far as teammates nudging you goes.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: San on September 08, 2014, 06:39:42 pm
I think the phasing is annoying, especially when you can reach an enemy's back. I think the stun can be reduced a tad. Does anyone else find attacks after nudges unblockable (if they still remain in front)? It hasn't really happened to me yet.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Jack1 on September 08, 2014, 06:45:18 pm
Quote from: San on September 08, 2014, 06:39:42 pm
Does anyone else find attacks after nudges unblockable (if they still remain in front)?

If they phase through and are inside of you/behind you 0% of blocks work

If they dont phase through 99% of blocks work
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 08, 2014, 06:45:35 pm
Quote from: MURDERTRON on September 08, 2014, 06:37:01 pm
The phasing through, and hitting from inside, which is very confusing and hard to block is a big issue and should be fixed.  Throwing ranged on the ground, isn't.  They could just kick you instead, so you'd be solving nothing as far as teammates nudging you goes.

agree with you about shield nudge part

about the nudge on ranged the problem is when it's come from your team mate
how many times i'm dueling some enemies ranged and get nudge to ground by team mate and get shot by the guy i was dueling
or getting nudge to ground then get fucked by an enemie coming from nowhere ...

so nudge enemies ranged and put them on ground is fine to me, sadly not enough people use it.
but nudge your team mates and put them on ground no ... one day i'm gonna rage after one team mate and get ban because he want to troll and piss of his ranged team mate.

as ranged i get nudge like 1 time per month by enemy, and get nudge like 10 times per days by a team mate...

anyway the main problem here is still this shield nudge abuse.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: rufio on September 08, 2014, 06:50:40 pm
also knockback distance on nudges needs a look at
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: BlindGuy on September 08, 2014, 06:54:00 pm
Quote from: San on September 08, 2014, 06:39:42 pm
I think the phasing is annoying, especially when you can reach an enemy's back. I think the stun can be reduced a tad. Does anyone else find attacks after nudges unblockable (if they still remain in front)? It hasn't really happened to me yet.

A good trick people are doing is.. well, there's two variations:

No shield: Polearmers or 2handers (this one works best with poles) block your attack, then instead of attacking you they press Sheath+Nudge+Nextweapon, so they still have block button held: this means you get nudged for long period (unarmed blocking nudge) and they can hit you without your being able to block.

With shield: Similar to last one but simpler to do, requires more skills invested: 2hander has shield out, closes with enemy, does neutral nudge as they press next weapon, and can instantly attack, while victim is still stunned.

If both of these animation breaking, ugly, and easy to do unblockable attacks were intended, then good, but since the animations all get chopped to shit and the result is fugly, I dont believe either of these was intended.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 08, 2014, 07:15:54 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on September 08, 2014, 06:54:00 pm
A good trick people are doing is.. well, there's two variations:

No shield: Polearmers or 2handers (this one works best with poles) block your attack, then instead of attacking you they press Sheath+Nudge+Nextweapon, so they still have block button held: this means you get nudged for long period (unarmed blocking nudge) and they can hit you without your being able to block.

With shield: Similar to last one but simpler to do, requires more skills invested: 2hander has shield out, closes with enemy, does neutral nudge as they press next weapon, and can instantly attack, while victim is still stunned.

If both of these animation breaking, ugly, and easy to do unblockable attacks were intended, then good, but since the animations all get chopped to shit and the result is fugly, I dont believe either of these was intended.

thx bro that's rly more clear i'm gonna quote it on first post and ask some devs to have a look at it.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: San on September 08, 2014, 07:16:18 pm
That sounds believable, sucks if true.

Posting the nudge code again: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2uSZrPWE

I want to think the "Ghosting time" is the stun, anyone else care to take a look? Either that or playing this animation and the numbers that follow: script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Penitent on September 08, 2014, 07:21:40 pm
I have never been nudged and then hit with a followup unblockable attack. 

There has always been time to block.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 08, 2014, 08:35:39 pm
Quote from: Penitent on September 08, 2014, 07:21:40 pm
I have never been nudged and then hit with a followup unblockable attack. 

There has always been time to block.
yeah it was the same for me
then appear people who was nudging , slashing,nudging, slashing ... (cooldown is too short) it was fucking boring but i was still able to block

now some abuser have ameliorated their technic and i dont have time anymore to block, i'm still in the nudge stun animation when i get swing
and there is also those people who nudge then pass through u to slash your back and same problem appear here, i'm stil in stun nudge animation and have no time to face and block the guy
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 09, 2014, 05:12:50 am
Just a couple of notes before anyone gets the wrong idea:
1. I would be in favor of removing "phasing".
2. I would be in favor of making nudge -> swap forcing the character to use the swap animation. This includes all nudges, not just the neutral shield bash.

There's a lot of "broken animation" shenanigans just by using block/attack with enough WPF and a target with high enough ping, but I won't get into that.

I haven't been able to replicate any sort of nudge -> swap -> swing & hit while target is still stunned, but I've only tested a character with 177 1H WPF + +3 Wakizashi, and another character with 170 Polearm WPF + +3 Hafted Blade, maybe higher WPF or faster weapons are required. The closest thing I can think of for that is the old swashbuckler attack nudge stun + left swing, but that was removed a long time ago.

The phasing issue is something entirely different from a nudge stun being too long. If your swing connects slightly behind the target from the inside after they're done "phasing"/being stunned, it could be unblockable, but it'd also require that your target stands still after being nudged. Overheads/stabs from behind are much more reliable as a cheap strategy because newer players will hold a side block and turn, but against players like Kaoklai/Havelle/FarmerBob you'll probably get a worse success rate on hitting than just using well timed holds with a fast weapon, plus you'll incur unnecessary risks from whiffed nudges from anyone who takes advantage of circling. As someone who basically nudges constantly, it's much more useful as a tool vs a crowd than 1v1, unless it's against someone with perfect blocking reflexes but terrible armor.

A problem with phasing is that it just seems to be how WSE2 handles any form of "knockback". Whenever someone gets long-staggered from a projectile, kicked, or nudged by anything that has knockback, there's a window where everything (swings, horses, players) except projectile entities (throwing weapons, arrows, bolts) just passes straight through them. I'm sure most people have noticed a strange phenomena where you or a teammate bashes or shoves an enemy leaving them open to an attack, but somehow swings end up phasing straight through the enemy, and you or your teammate(s) end up tking each other instead.

I haven't seen the old "ballistic" form of nudging first-hand. Did it have the same phasing issues, or was it just removed because the launching looked too silly?
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Rico on September 09, 2014, 05:16:50 am
Quote
I haven't been able to replicate any sort of nudge -> swap -> swing & hit while target is still stunned, but I've only tested a character with 177 1H WPF + +3 Wakizashi, and another character with 170 Polearm WPF + +3 Hafted Blade, maybe higher WPF or faster weapons are required.
I have seen people doing that with balanced builds (reads: less wpf) and longswords (reads: lower speed), and I have a ping of ~19 to EU servers (reads: it's not ping related).

There must be some other way to do this, but I am not planning to exploit it anyways, so I don't need to find out. Still sharing my info in case it helps you guys.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 09, 2014, 05:21:20 am
Sounds like it could be a hilt slash thing, I'm not too good at those.

It should be easy to pull off with a HBS/BS if someone wants to make a video and PM an active developer.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Apsod on September 09, 2014, 05:58:11 am
The nudge trick Blindguy is talking about is possible to do with almost any weapon. (Hold attack to make them hold a block + sheath + unarmed attack nudge + unsheat + hit). I have even done it with a maul(87 speed). It can be countered by simply doing a normal nudge with any weapon (pressing v when not holding a block or attack) right after or right before being nudged by the person attempting to do the trick.

It is kinda like the kick, trying to make it happen all the time will end up with you getting hit yourself more often than the enemy, but if you wait and do it at the right time you can get a free hit. However getting used to it and knowing when you can use it without getting hit yourself takes a bit of time.

Another thing worth mentioning is that sometimes people are able to block it. It seems to happen if the person blocking blocks the same way after the nudge as they were before the nudge, which might explain why the trick does not work against shielders (They are always able to block it).

Lastly I would like to say that I think you should keep it in the game. The last two year or so dueling (Where this is being used most of the time) have become a bit stale, but this is a nice way to spice things up a bit again and offer something new to learn and master for the people who have already mastered everything else. I know it was never an intended feature, but nor was feinting and now its one of the core game mechanics.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 09, 2014, 06:10:03 am
Quote from: Huscarlton_Banks on September 09, 2014, 05:21:20 am
an active developer.

Looks like we got ourselves a comedian
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 09, 2014, 05:00:11 pm
my bigest problem is not rly about phase shift but nudge cooldown who allow agishielder to spam it without having time to hit and this fucking nudge stun animation sometime too long....

i hope devs gonna look at it !!!
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 09, 2014, 08:09:48 pm
@Apsod
I hadn't tried sheathing/unsheathing, or 2H much with swapping, but my left hand hurts just looking at that explanation. Is there some sort of weird animation thing that makes it different from just using a 1H, shove nudging, and swapping to 2H?

As far as blocking goes, if you can block it with a shield, you can definitely block it with a weapon (unless it's a projectile/couch). Nudges are just like kicks in that they bring your defend down so you may end up blocking in a different direction if you turned the wrong way during the stun, but I don't see anything in actions.txt that would indicate that shield blocks have different animation priorities from weapon blocks, even if they have differing animation lengths.

@MURDERTRON
If San/Tydeus have access and permission to modify the relevant scripts it basically makes them developers :P

San seems very active to me.

@blackbow
I don't really get it then, neutral nudges all have the same stun time.

Code: [Select]
Neutral nudge stuff

Note that the number next to script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim doesn't directly correlate to stun length, it's just a reference to an animation.

1H NO SHIELD
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 9, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 1)      //knockdown on kicker

1H NO SHIELD, 2H, POLEARM
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 24, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      // Very short stagger, it hit someone who blocked
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 25, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      //Medium short stagger, it hit someone who was attacking
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 12, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0),      //Short stagger, it hit someone who was not attacking, blocking, or nudging. Applies to kicking agents if not 1h/no shield

SHIELDER

(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 24, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      // Very short stagger, it hit someone who blocked
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 25, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      //Medium short stagger, it hit someone who was attacking
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 12, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0),      //Short stagger, it hit someone who was not attacking, blocking, or nudging. Applies to kicking agents if not 1h/no shield

Shield neutral nudges are only different because:
They cause phasing (good for multiple enemies, bad for assisting besides using it to pincer attack because tw/tk risks)
They damage people in cloth armor (1h attack nudge is better for this)
You have a shield, blocking is easier.

If phasing isn't your issue then 1H swashbuckler neutral nudges are blatantly better for anyone who can block because it can knockdown kickers who are otherwise a giant pain in the ass for 1H users.

Pole/2h neutral nudges are better for assisting, but they generally have enough length advantage to make retracted leg kick stuns a viable option.

Shieldless 1H(except against attacking players, if they don't have low STR)/Polearm users can pull off the same phasing with shoves.

Are you using cloth/no armor + running into people who are just blocking, nudging, and running away to troll you via chip damage or something?
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: San on September 09, 2014, 08:50:02 pm
Once I learn how to create a crpg server with test code, then I'd be willing to risk changing stuff :)
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Blackbow on September 09, 2014, 09:54:08 pm
Quote from: Huscarlton_Banks on September 09, 2014, 08:09:48 pm
(click to show/hide)
@blackbow
I don't really get it then, neutral nudges all have the same stun time.

(click to show/hide)


so i will try to explain better and step by step, this is not happening all the times but when i made this thread someone made it 3 times consecutivly. ( i just remember it was a guy from eques clan)

so i was on my 2 hander (18/21) lvl29 or 30 with mw miaodao wearing gotland armor (17 weight)
the shielder came and swinged me
i blocked
he sticked to me then he did neutral nudge
then swinged my face (when i'm still in nudge animation)
and he repeated that 2 times, i was perma stun impossible to do anything.
i was like wtf is this , i remember someone who saw it and said in chat:
"those nudge are more op than kicks in old times..."

i also have a 36 archer hybrid (18/24, 8ath...)i play generaly with light armor (heavy aketon)
i have 76 in 2h, play generaly with hbs or great axe or miaodao
and it's happen too and rly often (not 3 times consicutivly but ... )
when i face to this kind of guy (agi shielder i guess) they just roll on me flooding nudge then swing then nudge ...
it's like one nudge on three is stunning me a bit more longer and i get slashed without having any possibility to block.

maybe the nudge is a bit longer because some latency ?
anyway i rly think the cooldown it's rly too short when they have time to chain nudge + swing + nudge + swing + nudge ...
and it should be back like it was before, 1 or 2 seconde was needed (maybe more) before been able to re nudge again.

we start to see more and more of shielders abusing of this neutral nudge.
you generaly have time to block after it (not always) but they gonna spam it and you have no time to do anything else than just blocking after each nudge...
it's rly op seriously

i dont know how to explain better with my shit english skills, i will try to record that on video but that's not gonna be easy

anyway thx for taking a look at it
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Algarn on September 09, 2014, 10:50:19 pm
Quote from: blackbow on September 09, 2014, 09:54:08 pm
i will try to record that on video but that's not gonna be easy

Je peux t'aider à tester ça sur EU3 si tu veux.
Title: Re: shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!
Post by: Apsod on September 10, 2014, 12:33:01 pm
Quote from: Huscarlton_Banks on September 09, 2014, 08:09:48 pm
@Apsod
I hadn't tried sheathing/unsheathing, or 2H much with swapping, but my left hand hurts just looking at that explanation. Is there some sort of weird animation thing that makes it different from just using a 1H, shove nudging, and swapping to 2H?

As far as blocking goes, if you can block it with a shield, you can definitely block it with a weapon (unless it's a projectile/couch). Nudges are just like kicks in that they bring your defend down so you may end up blocking in a different direction if you turned the wrong way during the stun, but I don't see anything in actions.txt that would indicate that shield blocks have different animation priorities from weapon blocks, even if they have differing animation lengths.
I don't know if using a 1H and doing it and then switching to 2H or Pole would work, never tried that. One thing you should note is that I'm not talking about a shove nudge, but an unarmed attack nudge, which you can do when you have a punch ready and then press your nudge key.

About the blocking. The stun from the nudge makes you only able to block the same way you did before you were nudged. Since shields only have one blocking direction they can always block it. However weapons can only block the hit if the hit is comming from the same direction as they happend to have been blocking before being nudged.